Spec (narrow) Tire class?

[Loren]

I've been having this idea for a while now, and I'm wondering if anybody else is at least mildly intrigued by it, or if it's just me.

Here's the deal: We all want to run the widest tires we can because we want to be as fast as we can to compete against all the "fast guys" in our class. But, is it *really* more fun to drive on uber-grippy tires than it is on less-grippy tires? Vintage sports cars (and race cars) ran on much narrower tires with WAY less grip than even a good modern all-season tire, and surely they were having fun! Sure, it's faster to have more grip. But, arguably, it takes just as much skill (perhaps even more) to get around an autocross course as quickly as possible with less grip vs. more grip.

And, of course, wider tires require wider wheels, and that all adds up. The flavor-of-the-year best tires are always expensive and you're lucky if you get a season out of them. So, there's a money-factor, as well.

My idea is this: What if we had an unlimited street tire class that REQUIRED tires no wider than 185, and treadwear no less than 300? Essentially, our M1 class with narrow all-season tires. Mods can be unlimited because... well, why not? We sort of tried this when we first started the club (a single mod street tire class), but tire technology has advanced so much that "ultra high performance summer street tires" really don't limit how much of a difference power can make, even on "street tires".

I think it would be fun. Having autocrossed a few cars on relatively fresh all-season tires, I can tell you that while it does require you to have a keen sense of where the tire's limits are, it can still be a lot of fun.

Thoughts?

[Jeremy]

I'm down. *looks around for 185/50/17 tires*

[Jeremy]

Maybe limit treadwear to 300 and limit width to factory spec to encourage entries other than miatas?

[Loren]

If people are really interested, the specs can be adjusted to whatever works.

Early Miatas may have come with 185's, but you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who's been autocrossing long enough to have purchased a set of tires who isn't running at least a 195. Point: 185 isn't ideal for a Miata, either... it's a solid limitation for ANY car. (and actually an upgrade from factory spec on a lot of econoboxes)

Treadwear limit is only part of the equation, it will keep costs down and make things more "interesting". Width limit is the big equalizer. If you let a more powerful car run a wider tire, it can make use of having more power. If everyone is on the same width, power becomes less of a factor and it's all down to suspension setup and driver skill.

Could maybe do some sort of weight based width allowance, I guess. A heavier car does need more tire.

And looking at tire specs and test results on TireRack... 300 might not be a high enough limit.

[Loren]

The plot (as usual) thickens.

Even with treadwear of 400, in 17" and larger tires, there are some STRONG performers. Tire Rack test results show some that are pulling .97 to over 1.0 G on the skidpad... all-season tires... with 400 TW! Modern tire tech is truly amazing. In the under 16" world, those awesome UHP All-Season options don't exist.

We may need to go to some sort of "approved tire" list, or do it by TireRack tire type and limit it to below "Ultra High Performance All-Season" category.

Of course, if only two people are interested, it's a moot point.

[Gerry]

I've actually thought of something similar.

My proposition: "real" street tire class. 300 tread wear or more. To call a 140 TW tire a street tire is a technicality. Not many people daily drive those tires, and we all know why.

But the 185 width limitation? No thanks. Part of what makes this proposition so intriguing is that I could maintain just ONE set of wheels/tires for daily driving and autocross. That being the case, I don't want to daily drive 185 width. I do now, just because I wanted to save money, but if I just had one set, they'd be 205.

Besides, who would mod their car and then want to run skinny tires? Meh. If its just for fun, set a tread wear limit and leave it at that. That's just my two cents.

I'm in stock class though, so my opinion doesn't count.

[Loren]

As state above. 300TW won't cut it. 400TW won't even cut it. It would keep all the current "ringer" tires out, but it would breed a whole new set of ringers that you'd pretty much have to run 17" wheels to get. Anybody on 14-15" tires couldn't compete.

[shakedown067]

Well I would love to come play, but I'm heading in a different direction with my car. The smallest width I'd be able to run is a 235/255 17" setup, to where I'd be at all comfortable driving my car. The 235's are cheap, but the 255's must not be in demand as they are pricey. Boy it'd look funny driving to the event on those tires. Would be GREAT for rain events though. LOL

My 315's were only $158, LOL, but they are crappy in all meanings of the word (next tires will be $215ea. though). Been a blast battling the traction so I love where you are going with it. Hope you can find enough to join in, as it sounds like a WHOLE lot of fun. You are making me rethink which 315's I go with. Might go ahead with the higher treadwear Nitto 555's vs the stickier NT05s.

Good luck with the new tire class!

[Loren]

Unless there's big interest, this is just an idea at this point. Personally, I'm looking at finishing out this season with the tires that I have, and then co-driving with John Evans next season. (and he's got his sights set on M2)

But, if there are at least 3-4 people who want to commit to it, we can make it happen. Sounds like nobody wants to restrict tire width too much. Maybe allow stock + 20 for width?

And if anybody else wants to look at tires, I was using the Tire Rack to find the best tires that fit various treadwear requirements and then looking at the test results for that tire. (TR tests most tires that are worth having) I looked primarily at the dry skidpad G's, because that is about the most important factor to autocross performance. I think we want to attempt to cap that at about .93-.95. But, you can't do it with a TW rating, or a speed rating, or traction rating or any other available tire metric.

[shakedown067]

Keep the thread alive for a while and talk it up over the next few events. Maybe it'll gain interest as the season goes on. With 4-6 cars that constantly show up, that would be a fun class to say the least.

[twistedwankel]

Since every tire manufacturer has a different 100 base wear scale it might be worth limiting to one brand of tire? Check out these Kuhmo's @ $65 each. They are directional but I'm sure they can be flipped on rims if wearing on the outside without any dire consequences. Tirerack will shave any street tire for $25 each due to AWD needs so that's an option too. Anyhow lots of sizes are available. I've put about 5000 very abusive miles on them and they are still ranging 4-5mm tread (don't know what that is in 32's? Only rotated them once.

Won't get any arguements out of me. 225/50/15" Kumho AST are 400 wear, A Traction A Temp and I've thumped on them at alot of xcrosses with no issues in wear or heat chunking on 86GT. They are quiet on the highway and stick well in the rain too. They are all season so you never have to worry about any northern or cold morning trips either.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp ... &tab=Specs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Back when I bought them they were on sale delivered for $240/set delivered no tax just UPS.

Now that I have a decent set of 15" Hankook RS3's $110/ea but very limited sizes it might be a couple years before I would change classes? But I think you have something there that might further level the playing field for most people having only one all purpose car.

[Loren]

I wouldn't even trust TW rating across the same brand. Not only is it inaccurate and based on "marketing" as much as anything else, but they're doing amazing things with tread compounds and really ARE coming up with long-lasting tires that grip well. (the holy grail tire that gripped well AND lasted 30,000 miles that we hoped for 20 years ago has actually been surpassed... but our expectations have also grown exponentially)

IF there was a tire model that was universally cheap, all-around "okay", and available in common sizes for at least everything from 14" to 17", I'd consider going all the way to "spec tire". But, I generally like to be more inclusive than that. There are lots of "relatively equal" all-season tires out there. We don't necessarily need to pick one, we just need to be sure that the "Ultra High Performance" version isn't allowed because then we're in the same situation we are with our regular classes: you MUST have "the tire" to be competitive.

[twistedwankel]

we just need to be sure that the "Ultra High Performance" version isn't allowed because then we're in the same situation we are with our regular classes: you MUST have "the tire" to be competitive.

Amen to that.

[Gerry]

If this hypothetical class would let me be competitive on normal, daily-driver tires, then I may be interested. Otherwise, I don't see the point...

The affordable 205/50/15 tires seem to be "ultra performance" tires. The Khumo Ecsta AST (400TW) is definitely cheap, but it's the *only* cheap option. I don't want to be stuck with one option; that's just bad consumerism. At least with the extreme tires like Star Specs, RS3, and so on, we still have a selection.

But even so, you're saying that 400 TW won't even cut it. And like you said, TW ratings vary way too much. So basically, I don't see a realistic way of making this class happen without "approving" one or two tire models. But then we're back to "you MUST have 'the tire' to be competitive," although in a different way.

If you guys can come up with a way we could autocross on 30k mile tires *and* be competitive *and* still be good for spirited driving, I'd be ALL FOR IT! I'm fresh out of ideas.

[twistedwankel]

Sayeth the man who just bought a daily driver so his "race car" can be just that:)

[Loren]

The benefits or perhaps purpose of this class as I see it would be twofold:

1. Try to make it cheaper. If we can run tires that will last 2 years instead of 1, even if the up-front cost is the same, we're saving $400-600/year, and that's a plus.
2. Give the drivers who are up for more of a challenge a place to play.

205's that fit on a 15" wheel and are short enough to fit a Miata are almost always "performance tires", that's why you're not finding much that isn't. The all-season market is going to be more stock-sizes. Stuff like 185/60-14, 195/50-15, 205/45-16, 215/40-17, etc. Stuff that's much wider than that will be "performance tires".

If you MUST have 205's on your Miata, this probably isn't the class for you. If you're comfortable driving a Miata on the ragged edge of what a 185 all-season tire has to offer, then you're the guy I'm envisioning for this class.

[Gerry]

Doug,
Oh no, I daily drive the Miata! My mom daily drives the Honda. I only drive it when I need to move my drums around. The Miata is too fun to ignore!

Loren,
Gotcha. Well in that case, if the class exists, I'd at least try it for an event and see how I like it. I plan on doing the AutoX school on my 185/60/14 all season tires, so I'd probably have a more educated opinion by then. Heck, if the class exists, I may even just do it simply for the cost benefit that you pointed out. Even if I wanted to daily drive 205's, I could beat up the cheap 185/60/14 AST's at autocrosses and maintain my nicer tires for daily use.

I think I just talked myself into it. +1 for the "spec tire" idea, although it still seems like there are some details to work out.

[Jeremy]

Spec 125mm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPh90yNX ... e=youtu.be" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[twistedwankel]

Spec 125mm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPh90yNX ... e=youtu.be" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That is such a cool film. I envy the lack of a helmet mostly!!

[Greg]

I've Kinda been in the class for 5 events now,

185/60-14 RIKEN Riken Raptor HR 82H

All season

Treadwear : 520


I hope this is why ive been sliding around like crazy

I'ts not.....