FASTiva Trans Swap - Feb 4

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FASTiva Trans Swap - Feb 4

Postby Loren » Fri Feb 03, 2017 3:45 pm

Got Brats and hot italian sausages for the smoker today. Soraya is bringing some sort of chicken stew. Steve and Ben are bringing ice and drinks. We've got the food angle covered. And that's important.

I got the parts car moved into the garage today. But, first I emptied a can of degreaser on the engine and gave it a good hose-down. I hate working on dirty stuff.

Bought a can of (generic) SeaFoam. Put about 1/4 of it into the engine oil and let it run long enough to sort of get warm. Ran it out of gas. Guess that means it was warm enough. After the engine swap, we'll need to run it some more, get it good and warm, maybe run the rest of the SeaFoam through the intake, and then change the oil.

I have an assortment of partial gallons of engine oil, enough to come up with 3.5 quarts. And a new oil filter. Also have plenty of gear oil so we can change the trans fluid.

So, I didn't get much of a head start today, but at least everything is ready!

I'll be opening the garage door about 8am. See y'all when you get here.
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FASTiva Trans Swap - Feb 4

Postby Native » Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:02 pm

Loren wrote:I emptied a can of degreaser on the engine and gave it a good hose-down
THANK YOU, sir!

Yup, I'll be showing up 8 (ish) with cooler and ice. You'll have me for about 8 hours (or less if Mike is THAT good... :snicker: ).
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FASTiva Trans Swap - Feb 4

Postby Loren » Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:29 pm

Oh, and the engine lift is here.

And to be sure Ron shows up... Cathy is baking cookies.
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FASTiva Trans Swap - Feb 4

Postby twistedwankel » Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:00 pm

What exactly is generic "Seafoam"? Kerosene?
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FASTiva Trans Swap - Feb 4

Postby Loren » Fri Feb 03, 2017 9:57 pm

Wal-mart store brand stuff. Probably the same mystery stuff that's in SeaFoam, but less than half the price. Kerosene would work just as well.

The store brand foaming engine cleaner worked as well as "Gunk" brand did, too.
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FASTiva Trans Swap - Feb 4

Postby Carracer » Sat Feb 04, 2017 8:40 am

Unfortunately I'm home with a cold. Hope you all have fun.
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FASTiva Trans Swap - Feb 4

Postby Loren » Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:08 pm

Sorry you missed it, but thanks for not sharing your cold. Hope you feel better!

We had a successful failure of a day. Overall, we did get the engine and trans swapped without too much more hassle than usual. (always something) But, now the engine won't start and we're not quite sure why. Seems like it might be a fuel problem... but, again, not sure what or why. We'll get there.

Thanks to all of our friends who came to help. Apologies to Soraya for not getting to her brake fluid flush. Bring the car over sometime, we can knock it out. I'm usually home in the mornings, and off on Fridays.
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Suck Less - Drive something resembling a proper racing line.
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FASTiva Trans Swap - Feb 4

Postby ImpostorDan » Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:44 pm

Ron - you get your bubbles out?
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FASTiva Trans Swap - Feb 4

Postby Loren » Sun Feb 05, 2017 2:21 pm

Troubleshooting so far:

Megasquirt indicates that we have "synch" (so it's getting the tach signal from the distributor as it should) and it "sees" the engine cranking 300+ rpm, and it at least "thinks" that it's sending a pulsewidth to the injectors. That all looks right.

We're getting strong spark on cylinder #1. So, the ignition system seems to be functioning.

We've got 12v power at the injectors. (they switch on and off by the ground supplied by the ECU) That seems normal. Checking that signal is getting to the injectors is harder to do, so we haven't done that.

Fuel pump is working and we have fuel pressure at the rail. Not clear whether we're actually getting fuel from the injectors.

No fuses are blown.

We've tried sweeping the distributor advance while cranking, no dice. It will give the occasional mild pop, but nothing significant.

Tried starting with a shot of ether this afternoon. Nothing. Not even a hint. Which has me thinking timing is somehow the problem.

Our next step is to swap to the distributor that we KNOW was working with the Megasquirt. The one in the car now we know is good, but it may not be the same distributor. (there are at least two different ones, and I'm not sure what the differences are... they "should" be compatible, but who knows?)

If that doesn't get it going, we're going to have to get more hardcore with our testing and troubleshooting. Bah.
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Suck Less - Drive something resembling a proper racing line.
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FASTiva Trans Swap - Feb 4

Postby BrilloHeadBen » Sun Feb 05, 2017 3:45 pm

Distributor swapped and correct rotor position achieved. She lives!
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FASTiva Trans Swap - Feb 4

Postby Native » Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:58 pm

Terrific! Well done gents!
By the way, I was gonna suggest the distributor. :chuckle:

And the food was quite tasty.
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FASTiva Trans Swap - Feb 4

Postby ImpostorDan » Sun Feb 05, 2017 7:27 pm

BrilloHeadBen wrote:Distributor swapped and correct rotor position achieved. She lives!
Congrats, did you go back to the mystery distributer?
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FASTiva Trans Swap - Feb 4

Postby Loren » Sun Feb 05, 2017 9:21 pm

We went with the one that was IN the FASTiva before. The one that the MS was tuned to work with. (odds are the "mystery" distributor is the same as that one... it was just grungy)

Geeky technical stuff:

The difference between the two distributors is probably that one uses an optical pick-up, the other magnetic. I still bet that they are electrically interchangeable as far as Mazda is concerned. So, why is one of them not working with the Megasquirt? Okay, I warned you this was technical...

Think about the square wave output of the distributor pickup. That output is either 5v or Ground. High or low. Up or down. One or Zero. The MS is very configurable, it can be set up to trigger on the "leading edge" (when the signal is transitioning from low to high) or the "trailing edge" (transitioning from high to low). Without doing a bunch of homework or testing to determine which one is "best", for the MS installation, we just pick one -- and if it works, we run with it. So, I don't even remember or care which way it is set up. But...

For example, if the factory ECU is set up for leading edge... and the two distributors have the same characteristics on the leading edge, then both would work the same in that environment. If that's the case, and the MS is set up for trailing edge... AND... maybe there's a difference in the length of the pulse or the characteristics of the trailing edge between the two distributors... then that would explain why the other distributor presented a "timing discrepancy".

We could have reconfigured the MS to work with the other distributor. As long as we know that distributor HAS an output (which we do... it gave us a tach signal), it's just a matter of finding the settings that work with it.

But, since we had the "correct" distributor that the MS was already set up for, that was the easy button solution.

I could go a step further and presume that we probably ARE using trailing edge on the MS. Why?

The way the optical pickup works (which is the older style, and should be what our 1990 distributors use) is a simple LED light and a pickup are interrupted by a spinning disk with 4 "spokes". Pretty fat spokes, I might add. So, the "pulsewidth" when the signal is on is pretty wide. It's on for maybe 50% of the time, and off for 50% of the time. Thinking one 90 degree segment at a time, that's 45 degrees of on-time.

The way the magnetic pickup works is a lot like an alternator or generator. There are 4 spokes on the rotor, as before, and there is a magnetic pick-up that generates a signal as they pass it. The spokes (or lobes or "teeth") are probably a lot smaller than they are on the optical disk. Meaning that the pulsewidth is shorter. Maybe on for 10% of the time, off for 90%. Thinking again of one 90 degree segment, we're talking about 9 degrees of on-time.

So, picking up on leading edge... either one works. Picking up the trailing edge... one of the two will trigger 36 degrees later than the other one! Certainly enough of a timing discrpancy to keep the engine from starting.

This would also explain why we never could get the MS timing to exactly match the timing marks on the timing cover when we checked with the timing light. It's off by a certain amount from what it "should" be. But, the MS is so flexible that we were able to tune around it and essentially set our timing "by ear".

Everybody confused now? Good.
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FASTiva Trans Swap - Feb 4

Postby twistedwankel » Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:43 pm

Reminds me of the side insert distributor on 2.6 Mitsu. When one re-inserted it one had to have the gear tooth slightly CC as it would move CW slightly (3-5*) as it slid along the shape of the cam gear making accurate timing impossible since TDC was off initially. On the old Ford 5.0 it was impossible to mess up timing as long as you had enough turn to make the light hit the 10 BTDC mark with the black wire pulled it was golden. Nowadays what is a distributor? Amazon.com I guess.

Is a Megasquirt an mechanical bladder? I'm so old I even hate abbreviations.
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FASTiva Trans Swap - Feb 4

Postby Loren » Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:30 pm

Megasquirt is a DIY aftermarket ECU. Can be adapted to work with damn near anything. The plus: it gives you control of everything, so you can tune it as you need to. The minus: you have control of EVERYTHING, and you HAVE to tune EVERYTHING. But, I enjoy that aspect of it. Once the hardware it set up and the engine is running, I can tinker with settings, it's fun and fulfilling.
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Push Harder - Drive as close to the limit of your tires as possible.
Suck Less - Drive something resembling a proper racing line.
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FASTiva Trans Swap - Feb 4

Postby Loren » Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:47 pm

The problem with having 6 people working under the same hood is that it's sometimes hard to keep up with what's done and what's not. Couple that with my feeble memory and... yeah.

So, I'm keeping some notes here.

What's DONE on the bottom side:
Axle shafts in
Suspension:
- Stablizer bar end nuts tight and cotter-pinned
- Inner control arm bolts tight
- Lower strut bolts tight (may need to adjust camber yet)
- Tie rod ends weren't loosened, but boots are shredded. Really ought to replace those soon.
- Quick inspection and wheel installed and torqued.
Mounts:
- Trans mount to engine bolts tight and safety-wired.
- Trans mount nut to subframe tight.
- Front Engine mount bolt tight.
- Top Engine mount bolt and nuts tight.
Transmission drain plug tight.
Transmission fluid filled.
Shifter linkage bolts tight.


What's DONE on the top side:

Wires all connected.
Fuel lines connected.
Exhaust flange nuts tight. (2 of 3... one has a broken stud)
Alternator installed and tight
Heater hoses tight

What NEEDS TO BE DONE:
Check wiring for proper routing/clearance and secured as necessary.
Install Radiator and Hoses
Fill radiator, run engine and check for leaks
Check distributor adjustment and make sure bolts are tight.
Install intake plumbing.
Install and secure air filter.
Install hood.
Test drive.
Run Seafoam through intake.
Change engine oil.


I think that's about it.
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Push Harder - Drive as close to the limit of your tires as possible.
Suck Less - Drive something resembling a proper racing line.
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FASTiva Trans Swap - Feb 4

Postby twistedwankel » Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:55 pm

A local shop quoted me a normal cost of $1000 just to swap an engine in a week....well done men :thumbwink:
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FASTiva Trans Swap - Feb 4

Postby Loren » Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:48 pm

Car has been set down and has moved under its own power. More importantly, we have reached the Spousal Approval stage of this project. Cathy can now park her car in the garage and the nagging will cease. 8-)
Spousal Approval.jpg
Spousal Approval.jpg (152.2 KiB) Viewed 8794 times
Loren Williams - Loren @ Invisiblesun.org
The "Push Harder, Suck Less" philosophy explained:
Push Harder - Drive as close to the limit of your tires as possible.
Suck Less - Drive something resembling a proper racing line.
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FASTiva Trans Swap - Feb 4

Postby Loren » Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:04 pm

I'll be back at it Tuesday from about 10am-3pm if anyone wants to come by. Should be able to get everything buttoned up, I think. Got a lot more done today than I expected to.
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Suck Less - Drive something resembling a proper racing line.
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FASTiva Trans Swap - Feb 4

Postby jbrannon7 » Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:42 pm

Loren wrote:Car has been set down and has moved under its own power. More importantly, we have reached the Spousal Approval stage of this project. Cathy can now park her car in the garage and the nagging will cease. 8-)
Spousal Approval.jpg
like the new ultra light hood.

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