How to deal with class G?

[Dave-ROR]

Another neat idea... but requires someone to keep up with who's in what class. Who's going to do it?

And then... once we get into the "Pro" class... I have to compete against folks like Muddy in his turbo Miata on race tires... with a stock Yaris on street tires?

just think of the satisfaction of beating him!!

yeh i realise keeping track is not easy, but neither will be determining cals base on wieght and power and everything else. i don't think there is an easy answer.

to be honest, i am new to this, however, the first results i looked at was the overall. that always mattered more to me when racing bikes.

Yeah keeping track of every car's weight and power for the past 20+ years is going to be an absolute nightmare IMO unless there's a *reliable* source for that information (edmunds isn't, but I guess it could give you a fairly close ballpark..). Either way, that sounds like a headwound as well. I'm not sure what the solution is to be honest.

I'm tempted to build a stock class Miata after I sell the S2000 just to prove that the Miata isn't all that outclassed in G currently. Sure, Jeremy will beat me, but he does anyways I know of some national winning drivers that will absolutely hand me my ass in a Miata.

Maybe Bill had the best idea, Class M for miatas only

[Dave-ROR]

Option 3 works for the remainder of 08'

A more fair split-up of G for 09' , maybe a simple 200hp over/under not sure, but a stock-ish Miata can't keep up with a stock-ish S2000

It has to be less than 200hp IMO... too many cars close to that number that could be extremely competition now.

the 150HP number seems fair, bumps ACR Coupe's out of the N/A Miata class that way, but leave's lower powered integra non-vtec's, civics non-DOHC vtecs, SE-R's, etc in the N/A Miata class.

[Dave-ROR]

I am with Steve. I think that the current structure is ok, but with the changing of liter designations to hp : weight designation. That way its fair no matter how you cut it, and a modded miata would be in the same class as a stock s2000. Instead of G being stock cars under 3.0 liters, it should be under 16 or 17 pounds to hp.

This is keeping separate classes for racing tires.

Impossible for modded cars, or everyone's modified car is suddenly going to lose 50HP at the registration table for those seeking a win.

Modified cars will have to use the same type of system in use now, ie whatever rating/scale/system makes class G, when modified you become class E, etc.

[Spin Out]

Another neat idea... but requires someone to keep up with who's in what class. Who's going to do it?

And then... once we get into the "Pro" class... I have to compete against folks like Muddy in his turbo Miata on race tires... with a stock Yaris on street tires?

Add the new suspension, R-compounds, (and a Blower?) and I think you can take Muddy.

Seriously, the Mazdaspeed Miata was bumped back to "C" from "B" in SCCA competition for a reason. It's pretty heavy and developes minimal boost. I strongly feel that it's no faster than a properly prepared C-stock '99 Miata because of the weight difference.

I fully agree that my MSM is unlikely to beat an "A" stock S-2000 (especially with Jeremy driving), so I can see the other Miata's feeling the same. I'm OK with the current classing; I just like to see the same class in the same run group. No matter what class I'm tosed into, I'm going to try to win.

So far I've run in Modified Race tire, and Under 3L Street tire, so next time I'm thinking about running in Under 3L Race tire to see if I can give Bob a scare.

[Loren]

I think Steves idea of power-to-weight for the stock "production" classes is a good one. For the modified classes, I think we need to stick with displacement (maybe displacement-to-weight?) because we allow serious power adders in those classes. (we also allow weight reduction, but I think stock weight is still a relevant factor)

We don't need to keep a database of what cars weigh and how much power they make, this is FAST! You want to run in F? You claim your stock HP and weight and run there. If your competitors think your full of crap, it's on them to call you on it.

All we need is one person to handle classing disputes that can't be resolved in that manner. Someone who isn't afraid to use Google, and isn't afraid to make a reasoned guess in the rare instance that information is not available.

We don't have to make this complicated to make it more fair.

[TracAction]

I too think the most fair is a stock power to stock weight ratio and then when you go modified use a stock weight to >3liter or <3liter ratio as the bigest class problems we have are in the stock <3L class


Also DO we have to run our Points year from Jan-Dec it looks like a good time to end the season would be July and start again in September? with August being a "off season" this would give a month for you ULTRA competative types to use Aug to make mods to your car that would bump you out of class mid year and not have to try to do it in December around Christmas and all

[Alizarin]

One major thing I would like to point out: Don't forget what the F in FAST stands for. Fun.

I agree that we need to do something to split up G. If not for the competitive portion, but at least for the number of cars. Do I think we need to go to a more complicated rule set, like power/weight ratio or picking nits over horsepowers? No. That negates the Fun.

Dave, the <=2L >2L thing for G and F (respectively) was only for G and F. Classes D and up would remain the same. IMO that's a rather easy way to get the Mazdaspeeds and S2ks out of G, while still allowing the stock Miatas and such to stick around.

And to TracAction, nobody likes working on their car in August. Too darn hot!

[Native]

nobody likes working on their car in August. Too darn hot

that's funny coming from guy who wears shorts on a 20 degree early February day... 8)

Don't forget what the F in FAST stands for. Fun.

+1

A quick look at G's results from last Sunday, and I found what I think was 12 or 13 cars at 2 liters or more (counting the turbo multiplier, and not counting double for two drivers). That would leave 15-16 below 2 liters, and bump up the others. I also guesstimated 12 cars with more than 150 hp. I don't have time to calculate out a reasonable power:weight split to see how that might work...looks like the three methods would give similar results, in G at least (assuming my automotive trivia is anywhere near accurate)...

oh, and not that it goes in this thread, but Scott's idea about an Oct-July season makes sense to me.

[Loren]

oh, and not that it goes in this thread, but Scott's idea about an Oct-July season makes sense to me.

You could tie all this together with an executive decision. End the current season at the end of July. Give everyone until the end of June to cuss and discuss any classing rule changes before the new season begins.

[WAFlowers]

You could tie all this together with an executive decision. End the current season at the end of July. Give everyone until the end of June to cuss and discuss any classing rule changes before the new season begins.

I'll back this idea. And anything that gets those fast Miatas out of my class so I have half a chance sounds good to me!

[Native]

tempting...

anyone care to cuss and discuss in advance of any decision being made?

I'll back this idea

ok. anyone else?

[Loren]

Post a poll. Folks not interested in class G might not be reading this thread.

[Dave-ROR]

i'll back ending it in July as well.

For the next few events lets use Jeremy's idea to get the top 10 at least to run with eachother, perhaps an entire 20 car group of the top 20 or whatever the number works out to be.

On the plus side, the top 20 might get the rain and the bottom 10 or what not might get perfect weather.

I'll vote for rain here, rain is fun as hell. (I'm guessing I'm mostly alone in that though)

[Jamie]

As for my opinion on this, I like splitting the classes so the entire class can run in the same group more often than not (as opposed to never like it currently is....

Never? I looked at the worksheets since last July (I haven't cleaned out the file since then), and found I had to split G over more than one run group exactly twice: January (right after the school) and this month. The few exceptions in the other months were people who'd asked in advance to run in a different group so they could leave early for work.

Leaving aside the comparisons between S2ks, Lotus Elises, RX-8s and Miatas, the issue with Class G is not just the sheer size, but that many of the novices end up there due to the cars they bring -- since the beginning of the year, about half the class. G also happens to soak up a higher proportion of the "special" assignments -- generally about a third of the class are those doing registration, setup, tech, and so on. Those also tend to be the experienced folks, so distilling them out just makes developing work assignments more difficult. This month was a standout -- 13 of the 22 people preregistered in Class G were novices....walk-ons skewed the proportion even further to 18 of 28. Of the 10 experienced people in the class, only 6 were available to spread between timing, starter, grid, and five course stations. Even if sheer size didn't do it, lack of experienced workers pretty much insured splitting the class, since we try to avoid putting novices out by themselves.

We could eliminate work credit for setup, registration, tech, and the like...everyone works the run groups, and we just rely on some people to step up to the extra jobs before and after an event. That would allow more flexibility in developing groups. I'd rather not, but it's a solution.

As for the cars, there seem to be an awful lot of Miatas in the top part of the finishing order in spite of S2ks and others. If you think you're being beaten by the car rather than the driver, arrange to swap cars...that'll settle the question!

[Anonymous]

anyone care to cuss in advance of any decision being made?

Dam**t, I just bought f***ing "G" magnets for my car.
Anyone interested in buying two orange G's?

[WAFlowers]

As for the cars, there seem to be an awful lot of Miatas in the top part of the finishing order in spite of S2ks and others. If you think you're being beaten by the car rather than the driver, arrange to swap cars...that'll settle the question!

Heck no! I want those fast Miata drivers AND their cars shifted to another class so I stand a chance.

In February (last time I ran) I'd have been 4th in class if Steve was in another class.

Seriously, Jamie implies a good question: what is the problem (or problems) we are trying to solve? Is it the size of G? Is it a real or perceived performance difference in the cars that currently land in G? Something else? All of the above?

We've all been quick to suggest solutions, but I'm unclear what the precise problem is. Until we can clearly define that it is difficult to choose among the proposed solutions.

Something that could be done would be to apply the proposed solutions to the results of the last months and see what the effect would be ... after we know what we are trying to accomplish.

[Solar]

I'm with Kenny, the "F" in FAST stands for fun, and we should try not to get away from that.

What is the real reason we want to "divide" G for? I'd bet that if Dave or Jeremy drove my car they would beat me even if I drove their S2000. In reality, it doesn't matter what class you're in, your time is your time. It would be one thing if we were competing for money and national points, but it's mostly bragging rights, and a "place sticker". If your time is better than someone else's in the same class or another class, isn't that what matters?

I say if it isn't broke don't fix it, because if we do change it, not everyone will be happy, and isn't that where we're at now?

[Anonymous]

The issue is that the people who normally compete for the top spots in G, drove in different heats and very different track conditions last weekend.

That's not really a competition.

I don't think we NEED to divide G, that's just one way to solve the problem.

[Solar]

The issue is that the people who normally compete for the top spots in G, drove in different heats and very different track conditions last weekend.

How often has this been a problem though? Weather conditions obviously aren't predictable, and I understand you want to compete with other drivers of your same ability. Maybe if we have a bunch of drivers in G and need to divide the group into seperate run groups, we should make sure that the top ten G drivers in points are in the same run group.

[Dave-ROR]

As for my opinion on this, I like splitting the classes so the entire class can run in the same group more often than not (as opposed to never like it currently is....

Never? I looked at the worksheets since last July (I haven't cleaned out the file since then), and found I had to split G over more than one run group exactly twice: January (right after the school) and this month. The few exceptions in the other months were people who'd asked in advance to run in a different group so they could leave early for work.

Jamie, accept my apology. It seemed to be more often than not, but that must not be the case so I'll take the statement back.

Perhaps just when we need to split them up we just try to keep those close in points together? I'm not as concerned as Jeremy is, but it does make it a lot more fun to run with people that are close in points since it brings up the competition a notch.

Of the 10 experienced people in the class, only 6 were available to spread between timing, starter, grid, and five course stations. Even if sheer size didn't do it, lack of experienced workers pretty much insured splitting the class, since we try to avoid putting novices out by themselves.

If asked, most of us would be willing to work extra. I pulled some muscles the night before so running cones wouldn't have been good for me that day but I certainly could have done other tasks, and I'm sure Steve, Brian, etc would have as well.

As for the cars, there seem to be an awful lot of Miatas in the top part of the finishing order in spite of S2ks and others. If you think you're being beaten by the car rather than the driver, arrange to swap cars...that'll settle the question!

That's been my point.....