How to deal with class G?

[Anonymous]

This weekend it really sucked not being able to run in the same heat as my competition. Track conditions play a big part in times when you have drivers of equal skill. So what can be done to keep things interesting?

1. Split run groups with a morning and afternoon session. Not perfect, but better than what happened this weekend.
2. Class reorganization. Move the s2000's, Elise's, and RX-8's out of G and into the > 3L category. This would make the size of G more manageable. Still not a perfect solution.
3. Treat the previous event as a "qualifying" for the next event. Keep the top ten G finishers together in the same heat for the next event. I think this would be the simplest solution. It would only be a little more work for the person splitting up run groups.

[Dave-ROR]

I agree, it's fun having you in Class G making me try to drive better That's impossible if we are in different run groups (not just for weather reasons). On the other hand I was able to get pics of your car on the course which normally would be impossible.

We actually don't have that many Elise's and RX-8's really, and not all that many S2000's usually, however some do see them as the fastest cars in the class. I tend to disagree to a point since I know that the driver makes far more difference than the car, but the car does make a difference. I think the Miata can be extremely competitive with our cars in class G, as Steve has proven more than once with his "trophies" (or whatever you want to call the stickers, best term I could think of right now). I'm fairly certain I could make a G class miata (built to rules at least) as fast as my S2000. The Mazdaspeed Miata is in G as well.

I guess my point is that while the S2000, Elise and RX8's do seem to be the car to "get" to place high in G, I'm not sure moving them to F would be the solution. That would annoy the people in F also.

Based on the numbers from this weekend, here's the counts by car:
Miata (all types): 12 (maybe some two driver cars?) (maybe 11, Car #5 lists as a miata but a S2000 was using that number)
S2000: 4 (maybe 5, see above)
Civic (all types): 3
RX8: 1
Focus: 1
240SX: 1
Chevy Malibu: 1 (two driver car)
Scion TC: 1
Neon: 1
MX-3: 1
Unknown: 1

Now, that range of cars is very large, and I'm not sure you can easily slice them into different classes, unless you wanted to do G-FWD and G-RWD/AWD or something.

Irregardless, not sure we can change anything this year anyways.

[Anonymous]

I think I like option #3 the best. It's the easiest solution. You could do the qualifying by the last events results or by season points.

Doing it by the last events results would be kinda cool to see people moving in and out of the top ten or whatever.

Hopefully we can do something like this in the future.

[Alizarin]

Some of us were discussing this at some point in the recent past. Last month was it? Maybe you guys were there? I can't remember.

I'm an advocate of merging classes B and C, since we never have anybody in B anyways, and then splitting G up somehow. Or perhaps F becomes Stock > 2L and G is Stock < 2L? Forced induction multiplier still applies, that way the turbo Miatas get moved up along with the S2ks.


Oh, and whatever we decide, such as if we want to break things up a little more, we're only 4 events in. I can redo the results based on any new rules or classing that we've got for points considerations.

[WAFlowers]

Looking at the distribution of class G cars that Dave posted the solution is simple and obvious:

Divide G into Mazda and non-Mazda cars!

[Dave-ROR]

Is the S2000 really fair in F? Those F guys are slllllllloooooooowwwwwwwww (that's just for Aaron and John and wasn't a serious statement.)

If you do the =>2L and <2L thing, you have to redo D and E as well..

[leftandright]

Check out the rulebook of martin Sports car Club in Orlando.
There are clases upon classes, their book is 1/2" thick.. a "very impressive document".
I'm not knockin those guys; they've been at it for a long time, got their system down.
They run a hundred cars- one through a hun, one thru a hun, and one thru a hun. Then maybe... fun runs. You are always on cold tires, and chilled out for your runs.

I like your system better.

It is axiomatic in auto x, you can buy a quick car. Read the book and choose carefully.

Thanks for allowing me to offer my thoughts. I think you guys do a fine job, what a good club.

THX,
Mike

[TracAction]

what about a weight split in G and E then too ..... or a hp split

or you could have a <2liter <3liter >3liter

[Loren]

Not all engines use the same level of technology. I think the displacement limit is not the most fair method to use.

I'd support the use of factory horsepower figures for classing. Yeah, the mods we allow will make it impossible to know how much actual power anyone is making, but we can know where they started and class accordingly. I think that would be more accurate than displacement.

C/E/G = < 150 hp
B/D/F = > 149 hp

That structure would automatically put cars like the Mazdaspeed Miata, the RX-8, the S2000 and other high powered cars up in the higher class and give the lower powered cars (typical Miatas, typical FWD economy cars... half of what shows up at an autocross) a better chance at seeing a trophy.

[deadmeat]

Just let me know what size pulley I need to run to stay in E class on the s/c

-meaty

[Loren]

Just let me know what size pulley I need to run to stay in E class on the s/c

-meaty

Following my guide above, what power you end up with is not a consideration. Only what you started with. (it will work better for the "stock" classes than for the highly modded ones)

[Dave-ROR]

I guess the first decision to be made by Steve, should this happen this year or not? If it happens this year perhaps a meeting is in order just so it can be discussed and completed in a much shorter period of time.

Loren's suggestion works for stock class where big power mods are likely not going to happen (save for the occasional low boost car), but how would you handle modified classes then? keep using the current displacement method? I agree that displacement isn't everything, a SE-R (say a B14) at 2.0L and 140hp would be in a "higher" class than an Integra Type-R at 1.8L and 195hp, both are good/great autocross cars but the ITR is def faster..

As for my opinion on this, I like splitting the classes so the entire class can run in the same group more often than not (as opposed to never like it currently is), how that split is made I don't really care. No matter what the split is I'll likely be in the other group before the end of the season anyways

[Loren]

I don't think any classing changes need to be made this year.

What you could do, which is sort of what Jeremy is suggesting, is split the larger classes based on the competition history within the class. As he said, always run the top 10 cars in class together. If you need to split the rest of the class into another run group, that's fine.

It's a simple enough solution, but it adds that much more work to the job of organizing the run/work groups.

[michlong]

what really being suggested here is similar to the format used in motocross or enduro and to an extent road rallying in the UK at least since thats where i am from.

i used to involved in running enduro events where we could have anything up to 300 riders in one race classes divided as follows.

novice
sportsman
clubman
expert
pro

so, everyone starts as a novice, once you have had 3 top ten finishes, or you are obviously far quicker than everyone else you move up a group.

in effect, you get guys running different cars but competing against people capable of similar results. eventually it balances itself and you do get better competition. to be honest what is the point in going out and winning group g everyweek.

i realise that this is somewhat removed from the current thinking, but it makes life a whole lot simpler. take the last events results for example, split into 3 groups for the next event based on your fastest lap and there are your groups. (i assume alot of the people that show up are the same). unfortunately this is open to abuse to a point, since people end up entering lower classes just to get a win, but its not difficult to spot who they are.

[Loren]

Another neat idea... but requires someone to keep up with who's in what class. Who's going to do it?

And then... once we get into the "Pro" class... I have to compete against folks like Muddy in his turbo Miata on race tires... with a stock Yaris on street tires?

[Native]

No we shouldn't make changes to the actual class structure in the middle of a season. But if folks want to put together a "committee" to redesign the class structure for '09, that's fine.

Altering run groups/order to ensure that those in closer competition get similar course conditions while competing seems reasonable, and maybe worth a little more work.

While I agree with others above that driver skill accounts for more than almost anything else, if you have drivers of relatively equal skill, such as Loren's example above, the equipment does matter, and certainly can be mis-matched.

Class G pretty much shows that engine size alone doesn't cut it - power when stock may be a better way to split it out, and what about stock power:weight? Class by pounds per horsepower might-could be another way of breaking out classes - ex: stock s2000 curb weight is about 2800 pounds, with what, 240 hp? that's 11.66 pounds per hp. A stock Miata is about (average over years) 2400 pounds and (average) 140 hp - 17 pounds per hp. Big difference. CLass F - MazdaSpeed3 3100 pounds - 263 hp - 11.78 pounds per hp. GTI - 3200 pounds - 200 hp - 16 pounds per hp - big difference...

[michlong]

Another neat idea... but requires someone to keep up with who's in what class. Who's going to do it?

And then... once we get into the "Pro" class... I have to compete against folks like Muddy in his turbo Miata on race tires... with a stock Yaris on street tires?

just think of the satisfaction of beating him!!

yeh i realise keeping track is not easy, but neither will be determining cals base on wieght and power and everything else. i don't think there is an easy answer.

to be honest, i am new to this, however, the first results i looked at was the overall. that always mattered more to me when racing bikes.

[miazda man]

Thats all i'm looking for is a little more parity for the stock miatas.Everyone wants to be competitive. I'm sure you guys can come up with something that will work. i think taking the Honda's and RX-8's out of G would help

[Charles]

Option 3 works for the remainder of 08'

A more fair split-up of G for 09' , maybe a simple 200hp over/under not sure, but a stock-ish Miata can't keep up with a stock-ish S2000

[Agent]

I am with Steve. I think that the current structure is ok, but with the changing of liter designations to hp : weight designation. That way its fair no matter how you cut it, and a modded miata would be in the same class as a stock s2000. Instead of G being stock cars under 3.0 liters, it should be under 16 or 17 pounds to hp.

This is keeping separate classes for racing tires.