Da Groj

AScoda wrote:FWIW, If we did decide to do a pax class. I would probably run there.
Don't know where I will be next season anyway. Rowen is in S class now, and if Mike decides to run his Porsche in S, I'll go back to M2.

Here is your most likely SCCA PAX class on overboost with 200 tires:
https://site-watcher.com/tools/PaxCalc.aspx This is a calculator I found online.

Super Street Modified class (SSM)
SSM PAX 0.871 FAST MO PAX= 0.836 and M2 = 0.816
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All 2-seat cars not excluded below
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All SM/SMF eligible sedans/coupes and those excluded from SM for failure to meet weight requirements.
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All SM eligible vehicles
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McLaren MP4-12C
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Porsche GT3 (991) and Carrera GT
Excluded Vehicles:
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Lotus (all except Elise, Exige, & Esprit)
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All 2-seat cars not eligible for Street Prepared Category
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All vehicles not meeting specifications to have been delivered in the US
Minimum Weight Calculations without driver (lbs.):
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FWD..............................................................................................1350 + 125 per liter
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RWD..............................................................................................1600 + 200 per liter
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AWD..............................................................................................1600 + 300 per liter
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Supercharged/Turbocharged SSM engines: Add 1.4L to the actual displacement
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Rear wheel weight greater than 51%.............................................+25 per liter
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Tire width 275 mm or less..................................................................................-200
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Regardless of the weight formulas above, no car will be required to weigh more than 2900.

I can see the pros and cons to the PAX class, and tend to agree with Phillip. I know I'm pretty new to FAST but I have a lot of fun trying to beat the fast guys. I don't wanna do mods on my car because the S4 class is so competitive and has so many people at every event, makes you feel for satisfied at the end of the day.

But I also see Lorens side in not bursting everybody's hopes and dreams their first time out. Especially with the way the world is now, maybe we should do what Dan said and do no more timing, everyone gets a participation sticker. But where's the fun in that. When I first came, I ran my Ram 1500 on the M2 class due to my mods. No chance of winning, just went out to have fun. Which is what a lot of people do. But I caught the bug and wanna be competitive.

Anyways, I have an idea, how about the people that want to run in a PAX class against the top drivers can put some $$$ in a pot, say $10 bucks, before the first run groups go out for each session. Out of the paying PAX "pro" drivers that podium in the pax times, they get the "pro" purse payout. That would also remove them from the individual class results, but still yield the championship points for their class.

So Phillip and Jason pay into the pax, both in S4, and Phillip gets 2nd in the pax. Phillip gets first place points for S4 but removed from the S4 podium order. Giving room for Jason to get first place points also on the S4 podium. I know that sounds dumb but Phillip would get paid and have to work a little harder for the championship in S4 if people can match his points at events. And on the plus side, maybe go home with a few dollars in his pocket. I'm sure a lot of people would be willing to pay in.

Besides, your calling it a "pro" class and all the racing I did before, pros get paid.

Loren wrote:And one of the arguments I keep hearing is that "noobs in slow cars aren't going to come back if they get their ass handed to them".

In my experience, this is the exception, even as an excuse. Those who decide they're not coming back usually leave because autocross isn't what they're looking for -- not 100 mph, not 20 minutes of seat time, not a drift event, etc.... Those who enjoy it stick with it even if they're running back of the pack...they either try harder, or just enjoy flogging the car for cheap.

Jamie wrote:

Loren wrote:And one of the arguments I keep hearing is that "noobs in slow cars aren't going to come back if they get their ass handed to them".

In my experience, this is the exception, even as an excuse. Those who decide they're not coming back usually leave because autocross isn't what they're looking for -- not 100 mph, not 20 minutes of seat time, not a drift event, etc.... Those who enjoy it stick with it even if they're running back of the pack...they either try harder, or just enjoy flogging the car for cheap.

This was me for many years. I put the time and money into schools to get better.

Jamie wrote:

Loren wrote:And one of the arguments I keep hearing is that "noobs in slow cars aren't going to come back if they get their ass handed to them".

In my experience, this is the exception, even as an excuse. Those who decide they're not coming back usually leave because autocross isn't what they're looking for -- not 100 mph, not 20 minutes of seat time, not a drift event, etc.... Those who enjoy it stick with it even if they're running back of the pack...they either try harder, or just enjoy flogging the car for cheap.

YES!

Jamie wrote:

Loren wrote:And one of the arguments I keep hearing is that "noobs in slow cars aren't going to come back if they get their ass handed to them".

In my experience, this is the exception, even as an excuse. Those who decide they're not coming back usually leave because autocross isn't what they're looking for -- not 100 mph, not 20 minutes of seat time, not a drift event, etc.... Those who enjoy it stick with it even if they're running back of the pack...they either try harder, or just enjoy flogging the car for cheap.

I agree. Not saying I agree with the argument, just that I keep hearing it. It's one of the things people say. Same argument people use for a "Novice Class", which we've never had... and never missed.

And it's not the noobs that tend to say this. It's the more experienced people who are trying to be empathetic and helpful in some way.

An idea that has been in the back of my tiny brain for a while, years actually, would be to force class champions to run in a pax class the following year, and allow others that want to compete with those guys to move into that class if they choose. It would keep the same people from dominating their classes year after year as is the current situation.

I don't dislike that idea at all. But, I'm not going to force it on the club.

You've made the suggestion. Now find some people to back it up. Or morph it into something that can get some support.

The general notion of a PAX class has largely been poo-pooed on by enough people that I'm not going to try to leverage it. But, you guys can keep talking. If you come up with something that at least 3-4 of the "fast guys" will run in, we can make it happen.

Not sure about forcing someone to run PAX class after winning their class once. (they could be in an "easy" class, or in a class where nobody else qualified for the season)

So I'll ask:
Are we that sure of the validity of our PAX formulas?
Or is this just part of "the rules are made up?"

PAX is always a guessing game, it's just a question of who's doing the guessing. In this case, we took somebody else's guesses, and best-guessed them into our classing system. Is it accurate? Eh. On our level, probably about as accurate as the normal PAX indexes are, except for R1, which could be blown out of the water by a "real race car" showing up. I think they're close enough. It's not like you see people at the top of the PAX list that you didn't expect to see there. Nobody's got an "absurdly easy index" that I've noticed.

Brings a good point, though. Due to the nature of our own R1 PAX... if we were to do a PAX class, we should probably exclude R1. It's too much of a wild card.

It's tough because pax relies so much on the track. A pretty open course with a few tight sections hurts the guys with no low end grunt (aka stock miatas). Yet a slalom heavy momentum course highy favors the cars that can maintain smoothness (which I know nothing about). Which makes me think instead of a class, make it an optional, put your money where your mouth is, dash for cash. If you choose to do it and place, then someone in your class may match or beat your points. But won't hurt you if your schooled by a higher power or more technical course. Still competing in the same class but willing to risk points for $$$$.

I get that this may be on the edge of gambling laws and what not, but I think protection would be in place by it being a private event on private property. Just a thought.

We're not likely to do an official cash payout kind of class. "The F in FAST is for Fun", we're gonna stick with that.

However, if we do a PAX class (or even if we don't) and the participants want to do an unofficial winner-take-all pool at each event... hey, that's cool.

Every course is a little bit car-dependent, PAX or not. Even within the same class, you'll have cars with a little more power, or a little more grip, or a little better at transitions, etc, etc. A PAX class introduces a wide variety of classes under the same umbrella, which complicates things and perhaps makes courses a little MORE car-dependent. But, we do try to do a variety of course types throughout the year. If you were competing in a PAX class, I think it would even out over a full season. Some days you get the advantage, some days somebody else does. But, if you're ALWAYS on your game as a driver... that's what it's all about.

Loren wrote:We're not likely to do an official cash payout kind of class. "The F in FAST is for Fun", we're gonna stick with that.

+ 1 bazillion.
The occasional friendly side bet is one thing...

ctsteege wrote:…put your money where your mouth is....

Pink slips.

Jamie wrote:

ctsteege wrote:…put your money where your mouth is....

Pink slips.

See...a friendly side bet. Now that's Fun!
Rock on.

I would be for a "Pro" class if it used SCCA classing to formulate the PAX modifier. But, it looks like I would be the minority.

No. SCCA PAX won't work for us. Too many of their classes allow what we are considering race tires, which would kick you into R1 for our classing purposes. Their PAX for the mod classes are higher than they should be for our street tire mod classes.

AScoda wrote:No. SCCA PAX won't work for us. Too many of their classes allow what we are considering race tires, which would kick you into R1 for our classing purposes. Their PAX for the mod classes are higher than they should be for our street tire mod classes.

I think Preston and I are proposing the same concept. We have cars in the PAX class running SCCA rules. For example Preston would be in STU - PAX and let's say Ron would be in STR - PAX. The cars would be classed following the SCCA rules and the results for their class would be decided by the the same PAX multipliers that the SCCA uses ( made by Rick Ruth ). It would allow SCCA rule following people to run with FAST but in the class their car was built for.

Y'all are way overthinking this.

Carracer wrote:

AScoda wrote:No. SCCA PAX won't work for us. Too many of their classes allow what we are considering race tires, which would kick you into R1 for our classing purposes. Their PAX for the mod classes are higher than they should be for our street tire mod classes.

I think Preston and I are proposing the same concept. We have cars in the PAX class running SCCA rules. For example Preston would be in STU - PAX and let's say Ron would be in STR - PAX. The cars would be classed following the SCCA rules and the results for their class would be decided by the the same PAX multipliers that the SCCA uses ( made by Rick Ruth ). It would allow SCCA rule following people to run with FAST but in the class their car was built for.

So what you are saying is your vision of a PAX class would be for cars built to SCCA rules, not FAST rules and use the SCCA pax system. So it could be considered and SCCA class.