Da Groj

I might vote for that...

January 2009

Class E1 (ASP/BSP)
1) Ronald Croft 04 Mazdaspeed MX-5 60.591 BSP
2) Kenneth Gardner 04 Subaru WRX 61.353 ESP, with BSP swap, bumps to class 1
3) Ron Marchini 04 Honda S2000 63.717+1 BSP
4) Brian Bode 01 Honda S2000 64.746+1 BSP
5) Juan Rodriguez 04 Mazda RX8 64.797+1 BSP
6) William Ensminge96 Nissan 240sx 68.803+1 DSP, turbo add bumps to Class 1
7) Doug Anderson Nissan 240sx 75.375 DSP, turbo add bumps to Class 1

Class E2 (CSP/DSP/ESP)
1) Rydell Huff 1 Impreza 2.5RS 62.723 DSP
2) Robert Vincent 05 Legacy GT 63.503 ESP
3) Andrew Scoda 87 Ford Mustang 63.994 ESP
4) John Kucek 00 Honda Civic Si 63.831+1 DSP
5) Jeff Greenhaus Acura Integra 64.013+2 DSP
6) Mark Jones 96 Mazda Miata 64.635 CSP
7) Carl McKim 96 Mazda Miata 65.620 CSP
8) Tim Allen 93 Mazda Miata 66.859 CSP
9) Chris Wells 00 Honda Civic 68.034+1 FSP, turbo add bumps to class 2
10) Keith Pecha Pontiac Firebird 72.297 ESP
11) John Dellacosta Ford Mustang 71.327+2 ESP
12) Lisa Vlaming 91 Honda Prelude 91.758+5 DSP

Class E3 (FSP)
1) Loren Williams 07 Sloyota Yaris 61.633 FSP
2) Evan Warner 04 Ford Focus 67.458 FSP
3) Michael Houtz 99 Toyota Corolla 68.996 FSP
4) Mark Warner Ford Focus 65.455+2 FSP
5) Jeff Klein Toyota Carolla GTS 80.461+1 FSP


April 2009

Class E1 (ASP/BSP)
1) Charles Stowe 240SX 67.811 DSP, bump up for engine swap
2) Phillip Hart Miata 73.682 CSP w/ SC
3) Rosario Gualtieri WRX STI 73.959 BSP

Class E2 (CSP/DSP/ESP)
1) Andrew Scoda Mustang GT 68.742 ESP
2) Rydell Huff Impreza 2.5RS 71.663 DSP
3) Nils Winberg BMW 325i 72.179 DSP
4) Jeff Blaine WRX 72.350 ESP
5) Randolph Barrera Prelude SH 74.183 DSP

Class E3 (FSP)
1) Loren Williams Yaris 67.024 FSP
2) Elliott Harvey Nissan NX2000 68.167 FSP
3) Evan Warner Focus 72.895 FSP


May 2009

Class E1 (ASP/BSP)
1) Kenneth Gardner 04 Subaru WRX 44.733 ESP, bump for engine swap
2) Phillip Hart Miata 47.288 CSP w/ SC
3) Steven Sheehy 240SX 49.673 DSP, bump for turbo
4) Sean Forrester 240SX 50.466 DSP, bump for turbo
5) Keith Pecha Pontiac Firehawk 52.114 BSP

Class E2 (CSP/DSP/ESP)
1) Andrew Scoda Mustang GT 45.020 ESP
2) Rydell Huff Impreza 2.5RS 45.796 DSP
3) Robert Vincent Legacy GT 46.446 ESP
4) Chris Wells 2000 Civic 47.653 FSP, bump for turbo
5) Dan Rasp Miata 47.764 CSP
6) Nate Howells WRX 48.498 ESP
7) Joel Harshbarger Del Sol 48.609 DSP
8) Chris Barnes 240SX 49.848 DSP
9) Jonathan Dunham BMW 323 51.827 DSP
10) Douglas Anderson WRX 52.503 ESP

Class E3 (FSP)
1) Loren Williams Yaris 45.082 FSP

A good driver in a well setup Miata, might spoil the party in class 2 though. Steve was almost the fastest on street tires at the last event. Not sure what his setup is, but I don't think it's anything special.

Give me a well setup NC miata and I don't think anyone will have an answer for that.

Jeremy17 wrote:I don't like DSP/FSP together at all. Last week, the Merideth's BMW was going .6 faster than me. And you want to put that car in the slowest class?

That's similar to saying "Last week, Loren's Yaris was going .8 faster than class E." There will always be good drivers pushing underdog cars to the limit. Isn't there some national champion heritage in the Meredith family?

I'd love to see some other input in this thread. So far, I think the notion of ASP/BSP being the top class floats nicely. The only question that remains is whether FSP should be the bottom class by itself... or be combined with the second class... or have DSP bumped down with it.

Moving DSP down balances the size of the classes nicely. It does make the underdog FSP guys have to "work for it", but not nearly as much as the current classing does.

Jeremy17 wrote:A good driver in a well setup Miata, might spoil the party in class 2 though. Steve was almost the fastest on street tires at the last event. Not sure what his setup is, but I don't think it's anything special.

Give me a well setup NC miata and I don't think anyone will have an answer for that.

Did you notice that Ron wasn't at this last event? He would have taken at least a second, if not two or more, off of Steve's time.

Look at the SP class list. The Mazdaspeed Miata is in BSP, not CSP. Adding FI to a Miata (with the associated setup and tires) makes it a much more capable autocross car.

The disparity between NA and FI Miata is probably less than the disparity between DSP and FSP.

Jeremy17 wrote:The disparity between NA and FI Miata is probably less than the disparity between DSP and FSP.

Ron (BSP) was .3 faster than me in March.
Merideths (DSP) were .6 faster than me last week.

Who has a better chance of making up that gap? A CSP car or an FSP car? The Merideths are good, but I wouldn't say they are that much better than me, if any. I think it is mostly that their car is dialed in.

And this is all based in reality since these are actual cars we will see at events.

More data from last week.

Albert P (STS Miata) 1.6s behind me
Elliott (FSP) 3.5s behind me

Both of those guys are on Z1's.
So, you have the Merideth's vs. Eliiott. That's a 4.1s gap.
Compared to me vs. Albert 1.6s gap.

Plus I believe the MS Miata has a huge advantage at SPC. If you go back to February at Brooksville I beat Ron by 1.8s. Which would put him right in line with Albert in a 1990 miata with intake, exhaust, konis.

What's the fastest ASP or BSP car you can think of? Add a fully reworked engine, a turbo and engine management to it. That's the potential of our top class.

How can unboosted CSP ever compete with that?

If I'm in an FSP car competing with DSP cars, at least I know they can't add a turbo! I'd take my chances there before volunteering to run a CSP car against ASP+boost.

Loren wrote:What's the fastest ASP or BSP car you can think of?

That comes to our events on street tires? Me at Brooksville, Ron at SPC. And I have no plans to rework the engine, or add a turbo or engine management.

We have to think a little bit outside of that box.

I'll vote for

A/B/C
D/E
F

or

A/B
C/D/E
F

I can't think of any class that goes with F.

I agree completely, but combining DSP with FSP may be a compromise that we need to make if there aren't enough FSP cars to make a class.

I'm going to leave this up for further discussion for another day or so, then I'll put up a poll and see what the general public things. Assuming anyone cares.

A few folks probably care, but you two and only a handful of others know SCCA classes well enough to intelligently discuss this.

Clarify, please:

Class E2 (CSP/DSP/ESP)
1) Rydell Huff 1 Impreza 2.5RS 62.723 DSP
2) Robert Vincent 05 Legacy GT 63.503 ESP
3) Andrew Scoda 87 Ford Mustang 63.994 ESP
4) John Kucek 00 Honda Civic Si 63.831+1 DSP
5) Jeff Greenhaus Acura Integra 64.013+2 DSP
6) Mark Jones 96 Mazda Miata 64.635 CSP
7) Carl McKim 96 Mazda Miata 65.620 CSP
Tim Allen 93 Mazda Miata 66.859 CSP
9) Chris Wells 00 Honda Civic 68.034+1 FSP, turbo add bumps to class 2
10) Keith Pecha Pontiac Firebird 72.297 ESP
11) John Dellacosta Ford Mustang 71.327+2 ESP
12) Lisa Vlaming 91 Honda Prelude 91.758+5 DSP

Carl's Miata is supercharged. Wouldn't that bump him to E1?

As I understand it, one issue is the current E class is large. The new E2 (C/D/E) is just as big. As such, A/B/C, D/E, F might help that, a little. But then there's the Miata issue that was mentioned, but I think that was more a concern in stock classing - a well-driven suspension-modded stock-powered Miata should do ok in A/B, at least in FAST (Loren and Ryan Broderick, among others, have shown that). Keeping F by itself is probably worth trying - at least one example previously showed 5 cars in F. But running a few more examples from past events might clarify just how popular F would be alone - we don't need another B that never gets used...so...

A/B/C, D/E, F , or if F isn't popular enough by itself - A/B, C/E, D/F

Native wrote:Carl's Miata is supercharged. Wouldn't that bump him to E1?

Yeah, that was a mistake, for some reason, I assumed he wasn't supercharged until after that time.

Okay, a poll has been added to the top of this thread. Please vote!

Jeremy17 wrote:I'll vote for

A/B/C
D/E
F

or

A/B
C/D/E
F

I can't think of any class that goes with F.

I voted for OTHER because my second choice wasn't included in the poll.

Jeremy17 wrote:I voted for OTHER because my second choice wasn't included in the poll.

Oops, didn't mean to leave that one out. It has been added. In adding it, the votes were wiped out, but only 3 people had voted. You, me and someone else. So, if you voted, go vote again. If you didn't vote, go vote!

If anyone wants to vote but aren't sure what we are talking about, here is a rough estimation of what cars are in each of these classes...

ASP
C5 Corvettes, Elise, Porsche GT2, M coupe, M Roadster, M3 (E46), MR2 Turbo, Solstice GXP

BSP
C4 Corvettes, s2000, Lancer Evos, STi, M3 (E36), 350Z, 240Z, 300Z Turbo, MS Miata, RX-7 turbo, RX-8, Boxter, Supra Turbo, G35

CSP
NA Miatas (all), MR2, CRX / 88-91 Civic, RSX, M3 (E30), SRT-4, NA MR2, Solstice

DSP
BMW 3 series, Integra (all), Civic VTEc 96-00, Impreza 2.5, Neon, 240sx, Sentra, Focus SVT, Prelude, VW Golf/Jetta, Mini Cooper S.

ESP
Trans Am, Camaro, Mustang, Mazdaspeed 6, WRX, Legacy GT

FSP
Focus (non-svt), Civic non-vtec, VW, NA Subaru NOC, Mazda 3

The official list is here, and I volunteer to create PDF's with the cars and their FAST classes, so you won't have to know SCCA classes once this goes through.

In addition to that, I believe we came to the consensus that mods will be unlimited except for...

-Bump one class for adding forced induction
-Bump to donor class OR up one class (whichever is higher) for a significant (+25% HP increase) engine swap.

I volunteer to create PDF's with the cars and their FAST classes, so you won't have to know SCCA classes

That'd be great. We can post it as the one for production.

the consensus that mods will be unlimited except for...

-Bump one class for adding forced induction
-Bump to donor class OR up one class (whichever is higher) for a significant (+25% HP increase) engine swap.

So in other words, we're still defining "modified' per this list (or, if it's not on this list, it's still "production"):

Any internal engine modification (crank, cams, rods, pistons)
Any external engine modification that alters fuel delivery (alternate carb, altered fuel injection, fuel-air ratio adjusters)
Any non-factory engine replacement
Welded chassis reinforcement, including welded roll bars/cages
Alternate or altered springs
Altered suspension geometry (relocated pickup points, alternate suspension parts to increase factory alignment adjustment range such as camber kits, camber plates, or slotted strut mounts)
Alternate main body panels (doors, hood, trunk lid, fenders, roof panel, windows)
Removal of factory interior parts (seats, interior panels)