Da Groj

rab wrote:The old and slow 1.6 Miata's get killed in M2. Any way of putting them in M3?
Caveat, they need to still have the 1.6 engine.
Just the thoughts of an old and slow 1.6 driver.
How about a fat vintage driver class.... FTW

I'm kinda new here, but I agree with Rick.
I feel like those of us that are displacement-ly challenged might actually have a chance of being competitive if us 1.6ers were bumped in to M3.
Just the thoughts of a young and slow 1.6 driver.

Damned internet ate my reply!

So, I'm not going to retype it, just the conclusion:

1.8 NA Miata weighs about 2100 in stock trim and makes ~135 hp (without spending buckets of money on an engine)
1.6 NA Miata weighs about the same, call it 2050 and makes ~ 110 hp (again, without spending senseless money on it)

That's 15.5 lbs/hp vs. 18.6 lbs/hp. The cars are otherwise nearly identical. Even the diff ratio advantage of the 1.6 is negated by our rules and easy availability of factory bolt-in parts.

To have the same power-to-weight as the 1.8, the 1.6 Miata would need to weigh 1705 pounds! That's not going to happen in M2.

I don't see how anyone can think that an 1.6 Miata (or any other M2-eligible 1.6) is not outclassed in M2.

2012 SCCA Solo National Trophy Positions in STS
1. 1988 Honda CRX
2. 1988 Honda CRX
3. 1988 Honda CRX
4. 1991 Mazda Miata
5. 1991 Mazda Miata
6. 1994 Mazda Miata
7. 1994 Mazda Miata
8. 1988 Honda CRX
9. 1988 Honda CRX
10. 1990 Mazda Miata
11. 1988 Honda CRX

3 Trophies at nationals in an outclassed car.
Those must be some helluva drivers in those 1.6's.

Jeremy wrote:2012 SCCA Solo National Trophy Positions in STS
1. 1988 Honda CRX
2. 1988 Honda CRX
3. 1988 Honda CRX
4. 1991 Mazda Miata
5. 1991 Mazda Miata
6. 1994 Mazda Miata
7. 1994 Mazda Miata
8. 1988 Honda CRX
9. 1988 Honda CRX
10. 1990 Mazda Miata
11. 1988 Honda CRX

3 Trophies at nationals in an outclassed car.
Those must be some helluva drivers in those 1.6's.

There probably are some great drivers in those 1.6's. But, what rules are you not taking into account? Like the one that doesn't allow a limited slip diff in STS? More power doesn't help much if you can't put it to the ground. In our M2 class, you're free to run a factory Torsen (or any other bolt-in LSD) and you CAN make use of an extra 20 hp.

And remember, this isn't SCCA. We not only don't have many (if any) drivers at that level, we also aren't preparing our cars to that level.

The CRX's probably DO weigh close to 1700-1800 pounds, which gives them a clear advantage even with 100-110 hp.

OK, so you want to move 1.8's without a Torsen to M3 also?

Let's make it so a miata is competitive in every FAST class.

You also won't see DSP/FSP cars with limited slip and 50+ extra turbocharged horsepower in STS. Even that stack of "trophy" cars in STS would get eaten alive by our M2 class.

You're missing the point and being argumentative.

Swapping a diff is an extremely common mod that almost any sports car guy does unless they have a ruleset (like STS or stock) that won't let them.

Swapping an engine is not something we should REQUIRE for a car to be competitive... which is pretty much SCCA's method of dealing with the issue in SP. They expect you to run "best of breed" parts and make use of the "update/backdate" rule.

As for 1.8's in M2... I think "expecting" them to swap in a limited slip to be competitive is "reasonable". Expecting anyone who owns a 1.6 ANYTHING that doesn't already fit into M3 to simply accept being uncompetitive, or to do an engine swap, is "unreasonable".

Sorry, I just don't see how a Miata with "unlimited" mods is going to be in the slowest class.
Think about it for a second.

edit:removed stupid example

Suspension, wheels and tires are open. Weight reduction is limited and we're hanging them at 110-115 hp.

That is not unlimited. Nobody is suggesting throwing over-dogs at M3. Well-prepared FWD factory turbo cars are probably still the best bet for M3...

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I just think it's going to be funny.

FAST Ruleset
Car&Classes*

*Except 90-92 Miatas - We understand your car is so shitty we had to make a special rule just for you.

The Boss 302 has 139 HP more than my Mustang and it's the same exact car. I need to be moved down 1 class IMMEDIATELY!!!!!! Am I expected to do a V8 swap to be competitive???

Congratulations, you've finally made a valid point.

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Sweet!

I am racing my Mustang in M3 next season then.

Actually the times were pretty comparable. Not sure how good Dave's tires were though.

Your V6 has more horsepower than my V8.
Just sayin'

It scares me when our parents argue
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Before you guys try to move anything with less than 250 hp into M3...

I don't have a solid number in mind, but I'm thinking a fair solution would be to allow a bump down to M3 for any Mod-eligible car than can believably demonstrate a power-to-weight of more than x pounds per HP. By petition only, case by case.

Shoot holes in that idea while I enjoy a burger.

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Redo the mod classes and base them off the stock classes. That will get rid of the SP engine swap issue as seen in the Mustang and I am sure other cars.

But, 1.6 and 1.8 miatas are still in the same stock class. So....

Any car that is STS eligible gets to move down 1 class, so 88 CRX, 1.6 miata and 1.8 miatas with open diff get to move.

But now, you are saying a turbo 1.6 is competitive with a 1.8? So let's make the penalty for forced induction a 2 class jump. Even though the 240 and John's miata are neck and neck. I think we could easily put some more time in the 240.

AScoda wrote:Your V6 has more horsepower than my V8.
Just sayin'

"Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races."

Jeremy wrote:

AScoda wrote:Your V6 has more horsepower than my V8.
Just sayin'

"Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races."

I actually agree with Jeremy on this one.

He can move to Dougpolous too.

twistedwankel wrote: He can move to Dougpolous too.

Now _that_ I would like to see........

Jeremy wrote:Redo the mod classes and base them off the stock classes.

Something to maybe consider in a couple years after the upcoming SCCA stock class shuffle settles. Definitely not now.

Any car that is STS eligible gets to move down 1 class, so 88 CRX, 1.6 miata and 1.8 miatas with open diff get to move.

Since STS is a popular class and a lot of people DO prepare to it... that might not actually be a bad idea. I think M3 would be a good fit for fully STS-legal cars.

But now, you are saying a turbo 1.6 is competitive with a 1.8?

Under our relatively loose rule set? I'm saying that all else being equal, a turbo 1.6 is more than capable of spanking most 1.8's handily. It only takes 6 PSI to get 150hp (crank) out of a 1.6 Miata engine with a very simple turbo setup, and that engine will tolerate 10-12 psi easily... 180-200 or more is still pretty conservative output. Except for a few 1.8's that rev to insane rpm (and have no torque), not too many 1.8's put out that kind of power.