12/6/2008 - Last FAST of the Year

[Native]

I completely agree with the apex issue, and the gates/sea of cones issue, and I don't have a problem with pointer cones either. But two pointer cones in a row and pointing on the same side can be confusing to read, especially for novices. It just seems that there better options for marking the inside of turn if more than one marker is needed.

[Anonymous]

It just seems that there better options for marking the inside of turn if more than one marker is needed.

Such as?

[Loren]

You guys are right on with the use of pointer cones. Had this course design been submitted to one of our crack team of safety guys well in advance of the event, they'd have surely corrected a lot of the misuse of pointers on this course.

One more note: Consistency. Whatever methods are used to mark apexes, gates, etc... consistency pays big dividends in keeping people from getting lost.

[Native]

Such as?

Well, only one marker, for one (less is more, right?). It can be placed so as to achieve the desired turn/curve/arc, but still conceal the true apex. If lay down cones are used, if it isn't an "apex", use more than one lay-down, as in "keep right" or "keep left" directionals. Gates, but we already established that neither of us really likes that. Chutes are another option (your course had those). A wall of cones "parallel" with the direction of the course. A wall perpendicular that you have to drive around in the desired arc. I'm sure there's more, but that's all I can come up with off the top of my head.

Loren, I'm on board with the consistency issue, too (although guilty of liking to mix a little variety into the few courses I've designed ).

[Anonymous]

I am not really understanding your point. To me it doesn't get any simpler than 2 single cones with 2 pointers. I don't understand how anyone could get confused trying to read that.

Here are a ton of Roger Johnson designed courses. (pre 2006)
http://www.houscca.com/solo/courses.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They have plenty of single cones with pointers lining the inside of a turn.

[Loren]

I don't have a problem with that. My beef is when people do a gate with a pointer on each side. Essentially telling you to "apex" in both directions at the same point..

[Anonymous]

yeah, I hate that too. I think those 2 "wiggle" maneuvers out there had that kind of feeling, but I don't think they were too bad, or that there was a better way to do them

[Native]

I liked the wiggle manuvers - they worked for me. If I did 'em right, which I didn't, they shoulda been straights.

I looked at a couple of the pre-2006 courses you linked. Successive single pointer cones are used on the inside of turns. Turns. I'm not criticizing your course, but I'm gonna use it as an example of what I'm talking about watch Vertigyn's video - right at the start, he's out of the gate, left around a pointer cone, then faces two more identical pointer cones on the right. They are in a straight line, one right after another. The first pointer is directional, not the inside of a turn - it's a straight at that point. The inside of the turn is the second pointer. And just that second pointer would have been enough to delineate the course. Later in the video, on the way back after the loop, while it's not as clear, the same scenario happens again, but the cones are farther apart as to more easily incorrectly be read as two right turns (or maybe it's lefts, I don't recall).

Again, my comments are not meant to criticize - it's a pet-peeve, I guess. Scenarios like this come up in our courses once in a while. I've pointed out before in other courses multiple single "directional" cones used along a straight just to tell people which way to go, and then later the same type of marker is used to indicate "apexes." Stating it another way, marking a "directional" in the same way you mark an "apex" is confusing. I'm not sure I can come up with another way to say what I mean if I'm still not making my point.

[Loren]

When I'm designing a course, I look at every single cone and ask myself if that cone adds anything. Does it need to be there?

Like what Steve is talking about, when you've got two "apex" cones that are 20 feet apart... 9 times out of ten one of those two cones doesn't need to be there. If you can define the same desired driving line with fewer cones, that's always the better option.

Where you "need" multiple apexes is when you're doing a big turn-around, like the end of an airstrip course. Three, four, maybe as many as five can be used. But, really... all you need are three. An "entry", an "exit" and an "apex". Note that NONE of those three cones needs to be placed in the "true" locations. As a designer, I like to set the entry and apex cones such that it will goad people into turning in early, apexing early and completely botching the exit. I'm evil that way. Learning to read a course is all part of the game.

[Alizarin]

OK, I'm starting to play around with better video delivery than "hey, here's a file!", so let's see what people think. This is my 6th run from this month's event. I know I left a whole bunch of time out there, in particular stabbing the brakes on the second "wiggle." I can at least use the excuse that this is only my 2nd auto-x since getting the car back to 100%. I'm still getting used to the dynamics again maybe?

http://mystic-lights.net/kmgardner/vide" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 1206_run_6

The FLV file it downloads is approximately 8mb. On my cable connection, it downloaded more than faster than the video played. Please let me know if anybody has issues, since this is on my web host. I get a bunch of bandwidth every month and never seem to use it.

[Anonymous]

right at the start, he's out of the gate, left around a pointer cone, then faces two more identical pointer cones on the right. They are in a straight line, one right after another. The first pointer is directional, not the inside of a turn - it's a straight at that point. The inside of the turn is the second pointer. And just that second pointer would have been enough to delineate the course.

First, it wasn't my course. It was designed and setup by Brian M. Secondly, you are right about that section. That first cone with pointer was totally unnecessary. That is a trademark Brian M. design and I don't really like it either. I did the novice walkthrough and I warned everyone to stay away from that cone and that it was a trick cone and only there to sucker you in. Someone made that the comment "That'll be me!!!" and everyone laughed. Maybe you should have been on the novice walkthough.

Later in the video, on the way back after the loop, while it's not as clear, the same scenario happens again, but the cones are farther apart as to more easily incorrectly be read as two right turns (or maybe it's lefts, I don't recall).

The ones on the way back weren't that bad. They weren't unnecessary or intentionally tricky. I don't see a problem there. All but one of those pointer cones on the back stretch were "key" cones for me.

But yeah, while technically legal because it is on the inside of a turn, that first pointer at the beginning was a "trick" cone, and "trick" cones are definitely frowned upon in Roger's handbook. I've let Brian know about those in the past, but he likes them.

[Anonymous]

Is this the other section you didn't like? I had the second cone as one of my key cones. So in my opinion it was necessary. Most people probably didn't set up well for this corner, because they thought the 2nd cone wasn't important, but to me it was.

Could it look better? Maybe, but it looks pretty good to me just the way it is.

[Loren]

Is this the other section you didn't like? I had the second cone as one of my key cones. So in my opinion it was necessary. Most people probably didn't set up well for this corner, because they thought the 2nd cone wasn't important, but to me it was.

Could it look better? Maybe, but it looks pretty good to me just the way it is.

This section worked fine for me, but I'm pretty sure it's one of the places that a lot of people consistently DNF'ed without knowing it. Easy to key on the second apex and miss the first one.

I think eliminating the second apex would have been more visually clear. Perhaps with a row of laydowns pointing to the first apex to keep people from going to the left of it.

[Native]

Yeah, that's the other section I was referring to. And I should've been on the novice walk, mighta helped me suck less!



Kenny, your video loaded and played just fine for me. Thanks for posting it - you, and everyone else who posts the videos

[impalanut]

Don't forget that the extra cones on the turn around were to prevent people from driving over the rebar protruding from the cement in a few places.