All-Season Tire Class - Poll

[Loren]

This is an idea that's been brought up before. Most recently in 2012 and 2013. It's been discussed to death, often in way too much detail, but in keeping with the traditional FAST rules philosophy of "Keep it as simple as possible", I want to propose this:

AS - All-Season

• Positioned in the class structure BELOW S5, but with the prep allowances of M0.
• All-Season tires required, maximum width 195 205.
• "Ultra-High-Performance" or "Maximum Performance" tires, as categorized by the manufacturer, Tire Rack, or other major tire retailers are excluded.

[/color]
That's it. "Run what you brung" as long as it's on 205-width true all-season tires.

Purpose of this class
There are many reasons for this class to exist:

• Allows a driver to be competitive with a much lower tire cost.
• Gives drivers of cars that might be outclassed as-prepared in their current class another option where they might be more competitive.
• Gives drivers who are up for a new challenge an interesting class to play in.
• Gives a lot of newbs who show up on stock-size all-season tires a class where the difference between their times and the top of the class might be a few seconds less.

"But, why would anyone want to compete on narrow all-season tires? It's not any fun without any grip!"

First, "All-Season" in the modern age does not necessarily mean "no grip". Fact is, we have to exclude the best of them because they're almost as good as the summer tires that everybody already runs! Look at Tire Rack's tests on some of the other High-Performance All-Season tires... you'll see some of them pulling up to .95 G's! That's not "no grip". All-season doesn't have to mean "the half-worn set of tires that you've had in the corner of your garage for 8 years". To actually COMPETE in this class, you'll need to buy a new set of tires. You'll just spend about half as much money on them as you would for any of the other classes.

Second, IF your competition is as grip-limited as you are, it CAN be fun! If pulling over 1G is the only way you can have fun, then clearly this is not for you. But, if you're in it purely for the competition? Going head-to-head against other drivers who are limited in the same way you are IS fun! Isn't that why spec racing is so popular? We're just defining our "formula" with a simple tire limitation.

Third, I've personally experimented with narrower tires than this. I've had crappy 175-width tires on my Miata for about 2 years. Once you get used to them and learn what they are capable of and how they behave at their limit, they are VERY fun! Anybody can go out and feel like a hero with a super-grippy, super-responsive tire... you want a sense of accomplishment? Go out and lay down a respectable time on a narrow all-season tire! I even ran them at the 2012 Endurocross. Did I win my class? Not even close! (but I was in M1 with a stock Miata... even with tires, I wouldn't have won) Did I lay down two very consistent Enduro runs and manage to finish close to mid-pack? Yup. Did I learn a lot about how to "spend" my "grip budget" to get the most out of a course? You better believe it!

"But, I can't run 205's on my Corvette, that's ridiculous!"
Clearly, this class is not a fit for every driver or every car. For now, we're experimenting to see if there's even enough interest for this to work, and we're trying to keep it as simple as possible. Yes, that means larger, higher-powered cars aren't really a fit for the class at this point. But, let's face it... this class is inherently about "doing more with less". THAT is the challenge. And if you're driving a Corvette, "doing more with less" is probably NOT on your agenda! People who come to an autocross in an economy car, a vintage car, or a 20-30 year old underpowered sports car... those people are used to doing more with less, and that is who we are targeting with this class. Of course, if you WANT to fit 205's to your Corvette, we're not going to stop you!

[jev61]

Please don't take offense at my vote, but I can't for the life of me figure out why someone would want to go slower. I first autox'd on "high performance" all season tires, they sucked so bad I couldn't keep the car on course (well I still can't, but it isn't the tires anymore).

[lddavis91]

My first thought/vote was that this was as good idea, not for me, but for some people, then I remembered I've moved to Florida now. There is no reason to buy all season tires if you live in Florida.. so... worst idea ever, for Floridians, decent idea for the rest of the country.

[Loren]

I know this isn't for everyone, and a lot of people don't get it. That's why the 4th option on the poll is there.

[twistedwankel]

The 195 max width kills my car for safe normal driving. Came from factory with 225's.

If it were 225 I'd try it as all ready have a set of mounted A/S 320 tires:) I think they cost $200/set which is what I have to pay for one 200 wear race tire.

[Loren]

Doug, a V8 Mustang is pretty much the car that our S3 class (SCCA's F-Stock) was built around. Classic American muscle car. It's not a car without a class that it can compete in.

An older V6 Mustang, or a 4-banger Mustang... those are cars that would have a hard time competing in their assigned class. Many of those are cars that came from the factory with 195 or 205 width tires. With modern tires (even all-seasons) being far better than tires of 20-30 years ago, I believe those cars would be just as safe on modern 195's as they were originally.

If you've got enough torque that driving on a 195-width tire isn't safe for you on the street... this probably isn't the class for you.

Remember, "more with less" is the mantra of this class. If you have an excess of torque, you're not doing more with less.

At this point in time, we don't want to do multiple all-season tire classes (I'll be surprised if just one gets off the ground), and we don't want to complicate the one class with a bunch of variables.

What I see that makes me want to offer this class are a lot of people who are either in a stock class that they can't compete in without spending $500-800 or more on a set of tires... and quite possibly another $500+ on a wider set of wheels (because we allow it, and their competition has it), and another group of people who are in a similar situation in the mod classes (especially M2), but instead of just wheels & tires they also need to spend thousands on suspension and power mods to compete. If they're willing to accept "the big equalizer" of a 195-width all-season tire, they can try their hand at "doing more with less" and perhaps have a better shot at being competitive WITHOUT spending much more than $200-300 for a set of tires.

[Jamie]

I know this isn't for everyone, and a lot of people don't get it.

I think lots of people "get it": power > grip => challenge + fun. The same attraction behind ice racing and skid cars. The problem is that there are very, very few cars showing up for events that could take advantage of it: NA (and a few NB) Miatas, my daughter's Fiesta, some older Honda and Mazda sedans. Add in the modification allowance, and you narrow the field further -- anyone going to the trouble of heavily modifying their car usually puts on larger/wider wheels early in the process. So rather than a "run what you brung" class on narrow tires, as intended, people have to add a dedicated set of narrower tires and wheels. Anyone willing to go to spend money to degrade tire performance is already in Formula 1.

I can think of two people who'd routinely drive a modified car on skinny tires. Only one of them lives around here.

[jev61]

Anyone willing to go to spend money to degrade tire performance is already in Formula 1.

I can think of two people who'd routinely drive a modified car on skinny tires. Only one of them lives around here.

I think there are enough folks showing up in stock cars on oem style a/s tires we could offer them a class. But if one of us shows up in a miata on factory wheels and 195s, it would look like sharks hunting seals. I think Loren's idea is to get us on 195s cause he's scared.

[Loren]

Shhh... I like to keep my fear hidden.

[AScoda]

I think it would be fun to compete in, just like running in the rain is fun in it's own way.
I wouldn't do it in my car though. If anyone wants a co-driver for this class, I am totally in.

[Jamie]

I think there are enough folks showing up in stock cars on oem style a/s tires we could offer them a class.

The problem is, most of them aren't on 195mm tires. And this proposal isn't for stock cars.

[Loren]

I think there are enough folks showing up in stock cars on oem style a/s tires we could offer them a class.

The problem is, most of them aren't on 195mm tires. And this proposal isn't for stock cars.

It doesn't exclude stock cars. It just doesn't exclude modified cars.

From my experience, I'd say that a wide variety of economy cars and low-powered sports cars would do quite well in this class in stock or at least "FAST stock" form. A good set of shocks, alignment, and whatever swaybars it takes to balance the car and put power down coming out of a turn, and a new set of 195 all-season tires. Good to go. Something like a Civic or Corolla or whatever fresh off the showroom floor with an alignment tweak would probably do better than you think.

Mods beyond what we allow in stock may or may not help. More power beyond a certain point isn't going to help anything on most courses. A fully modded suspension could help some cars more than others, but certainly isn't a requirement. But, as we all know, autocross is a driver's game... and doing it WELL with a very limited amount of grip takes that much more skill.

[aw614]

how about lower trim american cars from the 80s that use a tire larger than 195, but are still disadvantaged due to weight and power? I remember my friend's 80s camaro 2.8 v6 was classed as an S4 car b/c it was rwd while probably an isolated case, it does seem his car would compete better with the more modern day stock economy cars and the times he gets seems to be on par with them.

[Loren]

Essentially the same case as the older V6 or 4-cylinder Mustang. Slap 195's on that bad boy and rock this class!

We could potentially make an allowance for a slightly wider tire if it's not a NEW tire. A 3-year-old tire 205 (easily verified by date code) is not going to grip as well as a new 195 tire. We could allow for that.

Or we could raise the width limit to 205...

Good feedback in this thread will help us decide.

[Jamie]

205s are a much more inclusive choice, looking at the list of cars we've had in S4 and S5 over the last year. Those who come from the factory with 195s are a very short list, and that's assuming the base model in all cases, so the list might be shorter (as in, one hand's worth).

Forget checking tire build dates -- violates the KISS principle we've tried to apply to FAST rulemaking. And who wants to tell a competitor he can't be in this class because his tires aren't old enough?!

[Loren]

To be honest, I haven't paid a lot of attention to what tire sizes a lot of cars come with in a few years. I know the low-end econoboxes are mostly still running 185 and 195 (my wife's MINI Cooper even came with an odd 15" diameter 175-width low profile tire), and of course, early Miatas were 185-195 (205's weren't an option until 1999). But, yeah, I guess "heavier" cars like the mid-sized sedans, base model "muscle cars" and such probably do run 205's.

Okay, I'll go in and edit the poll and make it 205. But, you guys with 215 and 225 stock cars are outta luck. You're gonna have to downsize to run in this class.

[twistedwankel]

Okay, I'll go in and edit the poll and make it 205. But, you guys with 215 and 225 stock cars are outta luck. You're gonna have to downsize to run in this class.

No problem I'll just Google G78x15 and see what is left over from that generation

http://www.widewhitetires.com/CrossReference.html Crap would have to use F78/75R15's to get down to 205's. They cost about $200 each $2 more than my Rival's

[Loren]

Not sure why you want to use vintage rubber, but okay.

[Jamie]

To be honest, I haven't paid a lot of attention to what tire sizes a lot of cars come with in a few years. I know the low-end econoboxes are mostly still running 185 and 195 (my wife's MINI Cooper even came with an odd 15" diameter 175-width low profile tire), and of course, early Miatas were 185-195 (205's weren't an option until 1999).

But other than NA Miatas, who's showing up with those cars? I looked, and it's been a handful of showings, mostly one-offs down at SPC, and that's assuming they were running base-model cars on stock wheels. 205s capture most (but not all) of what's showing up in S5, and a portion of S4. If you're going to do this, may as well have enough to make a class.

[Loren]

Did you miss the part where I already conceded that there was a subset of cars that I don't pay much attention to, and changed the limit to 205?