Car Set Up Advice (89 CRX)

[Xanatos]

Hello everyone, my name is Logan and I'm 20 years of age. I graduated high school after my junior year and went to work for my dad's body shop doing mechanical and body repairs. I've loved cars for as long as I can recall, and besides my boring daily I have a 1996 Integra and a recently acquired 1989 CRX I work on to keep busy. A coworker recommended you guys, when I mentioned I'd like to try Autocross style racing (straight line stuff doesn't interest me as much)

I'm currently in the process of swapping out the D15z6 mini me out of my 1989 CRX DX and swapping in a B20 with an Integra cable transmission. The transmission is being rebuilt by a Honda mechanic and then the swap goes in the car. I'm hoping for ~150whp and ~160wtq

As someone who enjoys the bond between car and driver, this seems like the ultimate exercise of driving ability, and I felt like the CRX would be a great candidate to run.

So, anyone that has experience with FWD cars I would really appreciate some suggestions on what supporting mods would make my CRX better suited for this sort of racing. Below is a list of parts I already have, some installed some not

Parts installed...
KYB Gas Struts and Coils
Rear camber kit (to keep the alignment straight)
15x8 wheels unsure of tire size i'd have to check
Short ram intake
2.25" Tanabe G Medallion Exhaust


Parts bought to be installed...
Rear disc brake conversion (Integra)
Front caliper upgrade (Integra)
Hytech Tri-Y 4-2-1 header
VMS Short throw shifter
Innovative Solid B series swap mounts
Innovative B series swap linkage
9.3lb Exedy flywheel
Stage 1 Exedy Organic Clutch kit



Any advice is welcome and I look forward to meeting everyone.

[Loren]

Welcome, Logan!

Best advice: Start with a stable platform and focus on learning to read an autocross course and drive it right. This ain't drag racing. Throwing dollars at the car won't make you win. You've got to start with yourself!

Parts installed...
KYB Gas Struts and Coils -- Good... but, you need to be more specific about your "coils". Spring rates and ride height matter. A lot.
Rear camber kit (to keep the alignment straight) -- You want some negative camber for autocross. "straight" is not optimal.
15x8 wheels unsure of tire size i'd have to check -- Autocross is all about tires... but, as a beginner, it's not something you need to worry about. You got something round and black on the car that holds air... roll with it!
Short ram intake -- I'll file this under the "blah, blah, whatever" category, along with your engine swap. Doesn't matter.
2.25" Tanabe G Medallion Exhaust -- Ditto the above, but we DO have an exhaust sound level restriction, so be sure it's not loud.


Parts bought to be installed...
Rear disc brake conversion (Integra) -- Not at all necessary for autocross.
Front caliper upgrade (Integra) -- Autocross is not hard on brakes, the ultimate lightweight autocross car (such as a CRX) will often have SMALLER and LIGHTER brake components. Less rotating mass. Less unsprung weight.
Hytech Tri-Y 4-2-1 header -- See "blah, blah, whatever".
VMS Short throw shifter -- If it makes you happy, not a bad upgrade, just be sure it doesn't cause missed shifts.
Innovative Solid B series swap mounts -- Firmer mounts are good for throttle response, horrible for adding vibration, wouldn't make this a priority unless it's required for your engine installation.
Innovative B series swap linkage -- Whatever it takes.
9.3lb Exedy flywheel -- Definitely do this while you have the engine out. The positives are many, negatives are few.
Stage 1 Exedy Organic Clutch kit -- Don't go crazy on the clutch. Stage 1 should be fine.

Any advice is welcome and I look forward to meeting everyone.

See notes above. In general... if you've got another car that's already up and running, reliable, and something you're familiar with... it might actually be a better car to start autocrossing in. Starting out in a "project car" that's not properly set up will have you continually chasing your tail, unsure if your problems are due to car setup, or due to your own learning curve. Start with something you can just DRIVE and not have to worry about.

If you do start with the CRX, keep it simple. Get the car together and reliable and don't get too worked up about making it "the best". Autocross is a driver's game. Tune the driver first!

Regarding your car... hot engine, rebuilt trans, good. Fresh shocks, good. Mystery "coils", maybe good, maybe not. Define your terms there. Do you have an adjustable coilover kit? Do you have drop-in replacement lowering springs? What they heck are you talking about, specifically? Spring rate? Ride height?

Stuff that's really relevant to autocross that you didn't mention: Limited Slip Differential and Sway Bars.

It's a LOT easier to get a suspension set up wrong than it is to get one set up right. Even if you've got "the right parts", the variables are many. That's why I'm prodding for specifics.

BTW, All of the 80's and 90's lightweight Honda platforms (sorry, not a Honda guy, not gonna quote you chassis codes... though I did own a 1986 CRX for a couple years) have been EXTENSIVELY developed for autocross. A little research will net you a "formula" for suspension setup. They'll tell you exactly what spring rates to use, what shocks, what swaybars, what wheel and tire sizes... absolutely everything. You don't need to reinvent the wheel here if you want to build an autocross CRX.

Another thing to think about when building a car for autocross is what club you want to compete with and at what level. You might want to consider what class you intend to compete in, and what the rules for that class allow. (your engine swap has already limited your possibilities in this area)

Sorry for the rambling, but that should give you a bit to chew on.

[Xanatos]

Thank you for the detailed reply. I daily a SUV and plan to buy a truck in the future so unfortunately the project cars are the only ones I could reasonably run at a course, but thats why I have them haha. The CRX will be done before the Integra since it's the simpler of the two projects. It also weighs 800lbs less than the Integra which could work in it's favor.

So based on your reply I think i need to just get the project done with what I have and then start with what I have actually so i can learn how to drive the courses and then make adjustments as I see fit which makes good sense.

I hadn't previously considered the fact that because 80s and 90s hondas have been used and abused for every purpose imagineable there are probably a tremendous amount of setups I could study and apply to my own vehicle. So I will do this as I look to future mods.

Driver performance > Car performance seems to be a trend I'm seeing from your reply and other threads I've been reading through. I've already learned a tremendous amount from a post going over the basics of handling turns. I'll get some pictures uploaded of the car. It's rough but I fell in love with it.

Thanks again for the detailed reply Loren.

[ImpostorDan]

Driver performance > Car performance seems to be a trend I'm seeing from your reply and other threads I've been reading through.

Go through the past Open event results (on the website menu), by time, and see what Loren bests with 59 an 1/2 horsepower... in the Fastiva.

[Loren]

You'll have to dig around to find info, but anything written by or about Andy Hollis is going to be "gospel" as far as the cars you're talking about and autocross. https://www.facebook.com/HollisRacing/ He's the man.

Also, some really good info here: http://www.redshiftmotorsports.com/RedS ... 20Page.htm

But, again, don't think for a second that you need the "ultimate" setup to get started. Get the car running and reliable. Get a setup that is drivable (even if it's not perfect), and get started LEARNING.

Hope to see you at a FAST event soon!

[Loren]

Go through the past Open event results (on the website menu), by time, and see what Loren bests with 59 an 1/2 horsepower... in the Fastiva.

We do okay in our underpowered lightweight ox cart. More impressive is Philip in a bone stock and woefully underprepared 1996 Miata finishing in the top 10 regularly.

[aw614]

I honestly would keep the d series and drive it as is and then if you really want to go crazy drop the b20 in after you learned how to drive the car or when the d series finally lets up and dies. I think D series CRX are still competitive...

I would do all the bushings with either hardrace or oem rubber (Pricey $$) including the trailing arm bushings and then drive it. I would search the honda boards, but there are a lot of posts mentioning poly bushings giving issues over rubber.

I really doesn't take much prep to have something fun and somewhat quick for an autox course with the 88-00 Hondas. Im still using the same setup since 2014 on my Integra and, Im still the limiting factor. Although I may go VTAAK because my motor smokes a bit...

[Xanatos]

I honestly would keep the d series and drive it as is and then if you really want to go crazy drop the b20 in after you learned how to drive the car or when the d series finally lets up and dies. I think D series CRX are still competitive.

The D15z6 I have has issues in the bottom end, I've always been a B series guy though. This my first CRX after 6 Integras (3 of them parts cars) and I love them for different reasons. I had a B20z2 I swapped into my old 98 RS and I *loved* that motor so I'm happy I have a chance to build another. I was going to try and work with the D15 but I like my Honda LS motors too much.

I have polyeurethane bushings in my 96 Integra and they tightened up the ride nicely. Where guys go wrong is they don't put the suspension under pressure when they torque to spec but thats just my .02

Thanks for the advice everyone!

[Dave-ROR]

I honestly would keep the d series and drive it as is and then if you really want to go crazy drop the b20 in after you learned how to drive the car or when the d series finally lets up and dies. I think D series CRX are still competitive...

I would do all the bushings with either hardrace or oem rubber (Pricey $$) including the trailing arm bushings and then drive it. I would search the honda boards, but there are a lot of posts mentioning poly bushings giving issues over rubber.

I really doesn't take much prep to have something fun and somewhat quick for an autox course with the 88-00 Hondas. Im still using the same setup since 2014 on my Integra and, Im still the limiting factor. Although I may go VTAAK because my motor smokes a bit...

I've had so many Hardrace bushings fail..

I still use them on the endurance car because of rules. On the much better built car I run sphericals.. but it's not a street car so...

Logan: Like Loren said, just get the car running reliably and then come on out. Any of us current or ex Honda guys will be more than willing to ride with you and provide you with pointers. They will focus more on what you are doing vs the car, but if there's some major issue we will point it out.

I will say.. get a decent rear sway bar. It's a requirement to make a Honda handle well IMO. It's been awhile since I've messed with a CRX specifically so I won't suggest something specific, but research should help you there. On the Integra I normally run the OEM ITR bar (that's what's on my ITR currently), the ASR 24mm or the JDM ITR bar. Eventually I'll be running a custom 22mm on the ITR that looks like an ITR but is significantly stiffer.

[aw614]

I honestly would keep the d series and drive it as is and then if you really want to go crazy drop the b20 in after you learned how to drive the car or when the d series finally lets up and dies. I think D series CRX are still competitive...

I would do all the bushings with either hardrace or oem rubber (Pricey $$) including the trailing arm bushings and then drive it. I would search the honda boards, but there are a lot of posts mentioning poly bushings giving issues over rubber.

I really doesn't take much prep to have something fun and somewhat quick for an autox course with the 88-00 Hondas. Im still using the same setup since 2014 on my Integra and, Im still the limiting factor. Although I may go VTAAK because my motor smokes a bit...

I've had so many Hardrace bushings fail..

I still use them on the endurance car because of rules. On the much better built car I run sphericals.. but it's not a street car so...

Logan: Like Loren said, just get the car running reliably and then come on out. Any of us current or ex Honda guys will be more than willing to ride with you and provide you with pointers. They will focus more on what you are doing vs the car, but if there's some major issue we will point it out.

I will say.. get a decent rear sway bar. It's a requirement to make a Honda handle well IMO. It's been awhile since I've messed with a CRX specifically so I won't suggest something specific, but research should help you there. On the Integra I normally run the OEM ITR bar (that's what's on my ITR currently), the ASR 24mm or the JDM ITR bar. Eventually I'll be running a custom 22mm on the ITR that looks like an ITR but is significantly stiffer.

I was wondering about the quality of hard race for the long term...I ended up giving my friend my hardrace front control arms and going OEM on my original FLCAs as a friend needed front control arms. I never had them on long enough, but metal part of the bushings showed more surface rust vs the oem ones...

I think the only thing hard race on my car right now are the sway bar endlinks for the front, most of it is OEM honda replacements.

Rear sway bar is a big thing, its a noticeable jump in performance integras with the stock 13/14mm pencil thin thing vs the itr bar

[Xanatos]

Brief update. Tore my ACL and had surgery today (on my clutch leg no less) but when its rehabbed and functional I'll be back in the shop getting the crx battle-ready. Still very excited to try my hand at autocross.

[dbeng]

Ouch
Best wishes for a speedy recovery.
Dan

[twistedwankel]

An injury is why I auto crossed an automatic and learned to lightly left foot brake for about 12 years. Good luck with your healing.

[Xanatos]

Hey, haven't forgotten about you guys. My knee is healed enough that I could ditch the leg brace so I'm back on my feet (get it? Okay, I'll stop). Had a setback with the transmission, but I have been able to resume work on the project.

This is kind of a loaded question but I was planning on installing a LSD, any advice as this applies to autox? I get a feeling its a potentially big variable in handling

[Loren]

LSD for a FWD car is usually an expensive proposition. It's always worthwhile from a performance perspective, but unless you're making gobs of power, I wouldn't say it's a "necessity".

The other thing to consider is classing. Some classes don't allow an LSD. In FAST, we have an M3 and M4 class that your car might be eligible for (depending on your engine choice). M4 has maximum tire width (currently 225, might change for next season) and does not allow LSD. Exceed those limits and you have to run in M3. (this is assuming that your engine swap doesn't net more than 25% hp over stock... if it does, then you'll bump up to M2 and there is no restriction on LSD there)

Outside of FAST, SCCA has a Street Touring class that your car would be eligible for that doesn't allow an LSD. There are, of course, other classes that you could play in if you do have an LSD.

Best bet? Figure out how seriously you want to take autocross competition, which club(s) you want to compete with, start studying the rules and pick a class. Generally, the classes that have MORE restrictions are going to be easier to compete in. The less you are allowed to mod, the less you HAVE to mod, the less you have to tweak, the less money you have to spend, etc.

So, for instance, if you compete in a class that doesn't allow LSD, that's $1,000 that you don't have to spend on your car. Would it be nice to have an LSD? Sure. But, if your competitors aren't allowed to have it, either... you're not at a disadvantage, and your cost of competition is reduced.

[jmdoc66]

Whatever you do with the car, get it done, then come racing. Keep the car consistent, (tire pressure, gas amount in the tank, adjustable suspension if applicable) and work on the weakest link of the car. The driver. And most of all, have fun. This group of guys will 'mold' you if you allow them into a better than average driver.

[Dave-ROR]

Like Loren said, figure out how seriously you want to take autocross. Autocrossing is fun, but I will never build a car FOR autocross. I just don't care about points so I'll run in whatever class the car fits in regardless of how competitive I will be.

LSD is absolutely worth it IF you are making decent power (in a CRX chassis I'd want it if I were making more than 160whp) and if you plan to do track days and autocross a lot. Less need on the street.