Modified Category Changes for 2017-18 Season?

[Loren]

NOTE: This is not for the current season! If we change anything, it will take effect in September with the new season.

The "Problems": M1 and M2 are quite often VERY large classes. Given that we have ~100 car events, and we have 11 classes, our ideal situation is to have classes in the 8-10 car range. You can stretch that to 6-12 or even 5-15, that's fine. We just try, within reason, to avoid "really small" classes with no competition and "really large" classes where only 1/3 of the field feels like they have a chance. It's not at all an "urgent" problem, just something we like to think about from time to time.

M4 just "might" be too fast due to our selection of 225 width as the maximum. Seemed like a good idea at the time, but in practice... it really seems like 205 would have been a better choice. And if we were to put a limit on M3, it should be 225. Anyhow... M4 is intended to be "the slow Mod class". Somebody shows up in something from the 90's with lowering springs and not overly wide tires and no limited slip, they should be able to compete there. They should be able to compete there without jumping through hoops to fit 225 tires, which won't easily fit on a lot of older cars.

Lastly, SCCA has shaken up their classing again for 2017. We need to see if any of that is going to cause problems for us. Probably not, but we need to look at it. That's all right here.

The "Givens": We have based our classing on SCCA Street (formerly Stock) Category classes. It's not perfect, nothing is. But, it works. What we like about it is that SCCA keeps up classifying all of the new models that come along, so it's always easy to find out where a car belongs. Our prep rules are way different from SCCA, so we still use "Stock" classes as the bases for our Modified category. Again, not perfect. But, it works. All of the other SCCA categories are much more restrictive in what cars are included in their class lists. We like the completeness of the Street/Stock Category.

So, we're NOT reinventing the wheel here. Any change we make would be a change in how those "Stock" classes are combined to make the FAST Mod classes. We're not looking to split any SCCA classes, or pick and choose particular models to move around unless we ABSOLUTELY have to.

We're also not really looking at adding more classes, though we "could" add one if we felt that it would really help things. Any added class would have to take from a large class and NOT take from an already small class.

The Current Situation:
It's all Right Here, but this is most of it in a nutshell:

M0 – Open Modified Street Tire (SS, bumps and unclassed but streetable cars)
M1 – Modified Street Tire 1 (AS/BS and bumps)
M2 – Modified Street Tire 2 (CS/DS/FS and bumps)
M3 – Modified Street Tire 3 (ES/GS/HS)
M4 – Voluntary bump down from M3 (must meet requirements)

The PAX Index:
One more bit of reference material to include in this post is the PAX Index. This is a statistically derived index that allows cars from different classes to compare their times. It's really ONLY valid if all of the cars in question are "competitive" in their class, and fully prepared to the limit of the rules. But, it's still a good indication of how the cars in one class "should" compare to the cars in another class. Worth looking at when we're talking about grouping SCCA classes together to make FAST classes.


I'll start presenting ideas in the next post...

[Loren]

So, the first obvious thing to look at is our class split.

Currently:

M0 – SS (and bumps) - 0.835 PAX
M1 – AS/BS (and bumps) - 0.833/0.826 PAX
M2 – CS/DS/FS (and bumps) - 0.819/0. 811/0.814 PAX
M3 – ES/GS/HS - 0.807/0.806/0.798 PAX
M4 – Voluntary bump down from M3

The big question might be "how much do we want to mix things up?"

We could build a stronger M0 class (it's also typically very small) by moving AS up there with SS. Part of me doesn't like that idea because M0 has the potential to be a serious overdog class. It's a class with essentially no rules. Street legal on street tires and safe... not much else. Hard to get too worked up about moving people who don't HAVE to be there into it. But, the PAX difference between SS and AS is negligible. (equate it to a 45-second course, and the difference is .090 seconds) So, it's an option we could consider... of course, it would make M1 smaller...

But, maybe, since M2 is the real "problem", being too large... we could bump CS up to M1? Make M1 BS/CS. A bit more of a difference in PAX. But, CS is a lot of the faster cars in M2, and we all know that M2 is often faster than M1... at least in OUR sandbox. It could work.

That leaves DS/FS making up M2.

And ES/GS have nearly identical PAX, they belong together... HS rarely ever accounts for enough mod cars to make up its own class, so it makes sense to keep it grouped with ES/GS.

M4 should definitely keep its limitations of no LSD and tire width. I still sort of think we should consider reducing the M4 tire width to 205.

And, especially while nobody appears to be running a wider than 225 tire in M3, maybe if we lower M4 to 205, we should put a width limit of 225 on M3?

To recap the above, what I'm suggesting is:
M0 – SS/AS (and bumps) - 0.835/0.833 PAX
M1 – BS/CS (and bumps) - 0.826/0.819 PAX
M2 – DS/FS (and bumps) - 0. 811/0.814 PAX
M3 – ES/GS/HS - 0.807/0.806/0.798 PAX (225 tire width limit)
M4 – Voluntary bump down from M3 (205 tire width limit and no LSD)

Just some ideas. Please discuss.

[Loren]

Worthy of note. Probably one of the most significant SCCA class changes for 2017 (we're not letting it affect us until September!) is that the BRZ/FRS is moving from CS to DS. As it stands, that doesn't matter for FAST because we have CS & DS combined. But, if we bump CS up to M1, that would separate the BRZ/FRS from the Miatae. Those two cars typically make up a LOT of M2, so from a logistical standpoint, maybe that's a good thing?

[Loren]

Quick look at a couple of events. If we do what I suggested in the 2nd post:

Nov 9: (probably not the best event to look at)
M0 4 > 5
M1 12 > 15
M2 13 > 9
M3 4 > 4
M4 6 > 6

Oct 8: (larger event)
M0 3 > 5
M1 12 > 16
M2 23 > 17
M3 5 > 5
M4 3 > 3

Primary cars that are moving in the sample above:
Solstice GXP & Viper > M0
NC Miatas and BMW Z3 > M1

Also, I noticed that there are some M3 cars that come with 235 tires. So, 225 wouldn't work for that class. (maybe 235 or 245 would?)

[AScoda]

Looks like it will move a few around enough to even some things out.
How does it look for the December 3 event that had 23 M2 cars and 9 M1?
Quick look 15 M2, 14 M1, 6 M0

I may have missed one or two, but looks pretty even.

[jev61]

Just a quick thought, S5 and M4 seems to be the right places to restrict tire widths and differentials. Getting the numbers evened out in M1 and M2 might be enough for 2017.

[Loren]

As an M3 competitor, Joe... if you start consistently losing to something like a Focus RS that's running 245's, is that going to make you start looking to fit 245's on your Miata to keep up? That's what I'm thinking. A tire width restriction kinda helps keep the "tire wars" out of our lower classes.

If we don't have a limit, folks will tend to run as wide as they can, and always "wider than the other guy". If we set a limit, then people will target the limit, but they won't go past it. Keeps things from getting ridiculous. (personally, I think 225's are ridiculous in M4... and suspect that there is probably a "ridiculous" limit for M3, as well)

[twistedwankel]

If we don't have a limit, folks will tend to run as wide as they can, and always "wider than the other guy". If we set a limit, then people will target the limit, but they won't go past it. Keeps things from getting ridiculous. (personally, I think 225's are ridiculous in M4... and suspect that there is probably a "ridiculous" limit for M3, as well)

Like the man said:

[aw614]

I saw aaron's integra using 225 rivals, they didn't seem that much wider to say a 205 re71r. They actually looked like 205s to me when I saw them on his car...

What about limiting wheel width instead? We could all be on narrow wheels lol

[Loren]

Personally, I don't like the idea of limiting wheel width. There are those that will argue that it's just as important as tire width. But, "where the rubber meets the road" is the tire.

My other reason is that tires are expendable. We all go through them at the very least one set per year. Wheels are a more expensive "hard part" of a car. And if someone has a set of wheels laying around that happen to fit their car, I don't want to tell them "you can't run those wheels". I think it goes against our nature.

[twistedwankel]

There are a dozen Marquis Clubs who won't let you fart within the course area let alone touch your car. FAST knows it's customers. The rest of them are slowly learning!!

[jev61]

As an M3 competitor, Joe... if you start consistently losing to something like a Focus RS that's running 245's, is that going to make you start looking to fit 245's on your Miata to keep up? That's what I'm thinking. A tire width restriction kinda helps keep the "tire wars" out of our lower classes.

If we don't have a limit, folks will tend to run as wide as they can, and always "wider than the other guy". If we set a limit, then people will target the limit, but they won't go past it. Keeps things from getting ridiculous. (personally, I think 225's are ridiculous in M4... and suspect that there is probably a "ridiculous" limit for M3, as well)

If I starting losing consistently, I will buy something. GRM will probably test the newcomers in the new sizes this coming year. Andy Hollis will let us know what the delta is between the current and new is just like he did each year before. If I were a better, more consistent driver, it would not matter.

[Loren]

I guess what has been proven repeatedly in autocross over the years, especially when it comes to tires, is that "to allow it is to require it". Competitive people will buy the best tire that they are allowed to run. That's why I'm thinking tire width limits. I don't think we should force people who have tiny cars to have to buy stupid wide wheels and fender flares to be competitive.

It's less of an issue for the faster classes where most of the cars come from the factory with ample horsepower, and thus already wide wheels and tires.

[BrilloHeadBen]

Belated cliff notes version of my thoughts: I approve of moving CS to M1. Not only does it help the class size, the difference in PAX remains relatively the same.

[BigBlue]

Belated cliff notes version of my thoughts: I approve of moving CS to M1. Not only does it help the class size, the difference in PAX remains relatively the same.

This.

[Loren]

Bumping for more discussion.

Seems like most people agree that moving "CS" cars to M1 is a good move.

I'm still wondering about the tire width in M3 and M4.

My thought is still that 225 is too wide for M4. 205 would be more appropriate. I always thought this, but at the time we were setting it up, it just didn't seem like enough of a change from S5's 195 limit. Truth be told, I'd LOVE to drop S5's limit down to 185, but it would restrict a lot more cars from the class (it needs all the competition it can get), and it's getting REALLY hard to find any kind of worthwhile rubber narrower than 195. But, that's a topic for another day. Anyway... 205 seems appropriate for M4. We're about to "downgrade" the tires on the FASTiva to 205 RE-71's, and it's probably going to be faster than it was on 225 RS3's. Such is the state of tire tech.

For M3, I'm not sure if anyone is running wider than 225 yet. Probably not. Most of the cars in class currently are 1st gen Miatas, which have a hard time fitting even 225's. But, a look at the eligible cars shows a fair number of newer cars that come with 235's, and a VERY few that come with 245's (Genesis Coupes have 245's on the rear, not sure if there are others) So, maybe 245 would be an appropriate limit for that class. And, arguably, maybe nobody would want to run wider than that, so we don't need to limit it. But, for example, there are some cars that have in excess of 300 hp, and a not-horrible chassis. (Newer V6 Mustang, Genesis Coupe, several turbo cars) If they come from the factory with 235's, they can surely fit 255's or more. If they run that much tire, they're well on their way to being competitive in M2, and could be an overdog in M3.

[BigBlue]

I'm in agreement that 225 may be too much tire for M4. I would think 205 would work. Of course that's the opinion of a member of the M2 crazies who shows up on 245s and would go to a 255s in a heartbeat if it didn't involve too much banging on the fenders.

Could M3 be limited to 225 unless your car was OEM equipped with a larger tire, and then you could run OEM size as max, and only on the stock rims? Just thinking out loud here.

[Loren]

Could M3 be limited to 225 unless your car was OEM equipped with a larger tire, and then you could run OEM size as max, and only on the stock rims? Just thinking out loud here.

Interesting notion. I think it could work. Or maybe "give" a little and say max 225 or 10mm wider than the widest factory option, whichever is greater.

[jev61]

I'll be on 245's just to beat Ron.

[Loren]

I'll be on 245's just to beat Ron.

Ron is in M2. If it takes 245 for an M3 Miata to beat a top M2 car... that sort of illustrates my point. More than 225 should bump you to M2.