Tire Width Restrictions for Stock Category?

[ImpostorDan]

Loren, am on a tangent but maybe not worth another thread, with the "stock tire +rule" - does that make sense in the S classes?

I recall classing the German Princess and while it's something low like GS/HS material, it would have to run S4 due to tire, even though it's ultimately on par with Miatae on bicycle tubes.

Would it make sense to have S5 be close to stock widths and then S4 be +widths?

[Loren]

Definitely a tangent, and worth a new thread.

I don't dislike the S4 part of this idea if there's enough interest in doing it. It would be another "stop a potential problem before it becomes a problem" thing for the most part. I don't think anybody is abusing tire width in our stock classes... probably because we don't allow fender flares, and it's sort of a self-limiting thing in Stock. But, if you want to dig and find potential for "abuse" of our unlmited tire width in stock, it might convince people to go for this kind of a change.

As for S5, we can't make it just "stock width". The purpose of S5 was to be a place where the "underdog" cars can compete. It's the ONLY place they can actually be competitive without going nuts in Modified (such as the FASTiva). I'm talking about mostly economy cars that are 10-15-20 years old. Restrict them to stock width and a lot of them are running on 145 to 175 width tires! They could do okay on 185's if there were tire options in that size. But, performance tires are barely available in 195's these days, so that's where we set the limit. Most cars can manage to squeeze on a 195 tire (except the Festiva pre-fender flare, it couldn't fit more than 185). But, if we then allowed more powerful/more capable cars into the class with MORE tire (because they came stock with more tire), the underdogs would be back to being underdogs again. S5 is for them. Not necessarily for your Volvo... your Volvo could probably compete in S4 with a little bit of suspension work and some kick-ass tires. (and Philip driving it)

So, yeah... S5 is kind of my pet project. SCCA has forsaken the true economy car. (and vintage slow sports cars, etc) To be competitive in the slowest SCCA class (H Street), you need a Mini Cooper or a Fiesta ST. To be competitive in the next slowest class (G Street), you need something like a Focus ST or Mazdaspeed 3. To me, that's ridiculous for a grassroots motorsport! And that's why FAST S5 exists in its current form. It's taken a couple years for it to develop a following, but people are now starting to see it and it's getting quite interesting!

[ImpostorDan]

Swedish meatballs anyone? I guess Philip getting some cheap horsepower is the answer to the S4/tire challenge.

[Jamie]

So, yeah... S5 is kind of my pet project. SCCA has forsaken the true economy car. (and vintage slow sports cars, etc)

And S5 doesn't change this by allowing ES cars to bump down. Few GS/HS cars will compete with an NA Miata or an MR2, narrow tires and open diff or not. Base model MINI Coopers (which doesn't help your cause). EF Honda Civics, perhaps, by virtue of light weight and a very good suspension. Fieros, now that they're vintage slow sports cars...if you can find one unmolested and untoasted. But you won't see anyone seriously contesting S5 in its current form with an MGB or a TR6, or an unmodified Corolla or Versa.

[Loren]

True, every class will have it's overdogs. We had to allow more cars into S5 for it to survive.

I think if a really good driver showed up in a really well set up (anything that has 90-120 up) with good 195 tires, they could challenge S5. There are sports cars that could make it difficult for them... but, they would at least be in the hunt, largely due to the tire restriction.

[Jamie]

I think if a really good driver showed up in a really well set up (anything that has 90-120 up) with good 195 tires, they could challenge S5.

You still have that Spitfire?

[Loren]

I'm thinking stuff like the Yaris, the Fit, 90's era lightweight econoboxes, etc. Capable cars that couldn't compete in S4 where their competition HAS limited slip and can fit a wider tire. Remember, I spent some time wheeling a Yaris with nothing more than good tires, good shocks, and a fat rear swaybar. That kind of car CAN compete with a Miata... as long as the Miata isn't wearing wider tires and has an open diff.

I sold the Spitfire, but there's no way it could make more than about 60 hp without upgrading the fuel system from stock (and a BUNCH of other stuff). Mine was in the midst of an engine swap that would have made it M0, anyway. Even with that, though... if you put the right shocks on it, fresh suspension, big front swaybar, and 195's (you'd have to roll the shit out of the fenders) in place of the factory 155's... even a car like that would surprise you. It's another 1800 pound car, like the FASTiva!

Like any class, you either show up with "the overdog car" (and you still have to prep it and drive it right), or you simply have to try harder to get the car set up just right. I keep coming back to Drew's Mustang in M2. That car "shouldn't" win M2. But, Drew did all the right things to it and learned to drive it well... and won.

You also have to show up consistently to win!

[Loren]

But you won't see anyone seriously contesting S5 in its current form with an MGB or a TR6, or an unmodified Corolla or Versa.

Perhaps not, but we could. It would take a serious enthusiast to do it with vintage British iron, but I would love to see someone try a Corolla or Versa! In fact, it's very possible that if/when we get tired of the FASTiva, my next project will be a similarly low-budget S5 car. Something cheap, light, reliable, unassuming, around 100 hp, 4x100 wheels (because I have them), and capable of fitting a 195 tire without issue.

"Miata is always the answer"... it's an easy choice for just about any class that it is eligible for. But, it's not the only choice, and I like showing up in weird stuff and challenging assumptions.

[Amphoteric88]

Speaking of challenging assumptions, in S5...

I have done okay this season and did okay last season in my tired out Corolla, running all season 185s. While true that an NA Miata is currently winning, from what I saw when Loren whipped my car around at the December Classic, I have SO MUCH time to cut off and techniques to improve upon. He dropped just about 3 seconds off my 41 sec best time on his first try! And I can still get better tires, thanks to S5's current rules.

Restrict them to stock width and a lot of them are running on 145 to 175 width tires! They could do okay on 185's if there were tire options in that size.

This would be my brother's predicament. Good luck finding a performance tire around 155/R13! Though I'm proud of his performance in his Tercel. He has proven to be the better driver so far.

I think it was mentioned in another thread about a hard wheel width limit for S4, rather than a stock + XXmm rule. For simplicity's sake, I support the former over the latter.

[Loren]

I think I've mentioned before that I prefer a tire width limit over a wheel width limit because tires are expendable. At our level, wheels are more of a "hard investment". If you've got wheels that fit your car, I don't want to tell you that you have to buy something else that's just a little bit different. Tires... if you're serious about autocross, you're going to buy another set within a year, anyway... and you can fit a tire of a certain width on a variety of different wheel sizes.

To look at it another way, fitting a significantly wider TIRE can shave a half-second or more off of your time vs the narrower tire. (and I'm probably being conservative with that assumption) Fine tuning exactly the right WHEEL width for a specified tire width can make a difference in the way the tire feels and responds, but really only make a tenth or two difference in time... and then probably only for the "alien" driver who is getting absolutely everything out of the tire.

[Loren]

I have done okay this season and did okay last season in my tired out Corolla, running all season 185s. While true that an NA Miata is currently winning

Apples and oranges, really. Nobody should expect your car to be winning S5. Not because it's a Corolla, but because it's not been optimized in any way. Tires, suspension, alignment... yeah, you'll never be "as good" as a Miata. But, you could get close enough that the driver becomes the deciding factor. The Miata in question was optimized over a season of competition in S4, it's got good suspension and alignment. And he's running top tier 195 tires. Do all of those things to your car, and drive it well, and you'll be in the hunt. Unfortunately, even at our level, and even in S5, you have to spend a little bit of money and time setting up a car to be truly competitive.

Of course, first you need to tune the driver, which you are doing.