Toe and Camber adjustment question

[CaptainSquirts]

So I swapped my coilovers(in the front so far) and adjusted the ride height. I put my camber bolt at the max for negative camber which should be at most -2. I then slid the coilovers to the most negative for the passanger side and driver side, not as much. My passenger side camber is showing at -2.4ish at max and my driver side is -3. The toe still needs adjusting still but would adjusting the toe help the camber on the passenger side with getting more negative camber when adjusting? Not really sure why the passenger side is off by positive .5 when everything is maxed out on it compared to the driver side.

[Loren]

Adjusting toe will not affect camber.

Adjusting camber WILL affect toe.

Always set the camber (and caster, if it is adjustable) first.

[CaptainSquirts]

Forgot to add the driver side is higher by 1/8th ish of an inch if that makes a big difference.

[Loren]

1/8" of height doesn't make that much of a difference. Especially with a Mcpherson strut suspension. (if it was a proper dual-wishbone suspension, they have camber curves usually on the order of 1 degree per inch of travel... even then, 1/8" would equate to maybe .125 degrees of camber)

Work your camber adjustments to get them closer to each other. Within about a tenth of a degree. Ideally, measure with your weight in the driver's seat.

Then set the toe.

[CaptainSquirts]

Ok I'll have to see where the driver side/passanger side sits at when sitting in it. Thanks

[RedBRZ80]

If you can get your weight in the seat (using weights and such) and adjust it helps


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[CaptainSquirts]

Lets say you get a nice even full patch of even contact on a tire while cornering. But in this case the car has a lot of body roll so a lot of negative camber was had. Now since the car has less body roll, does that mean you should run less negative camber?

[Loren]

Maybe. But, probably not.

It's going to depend on a lot of variables. Spring rates, bar rates, where your CG and roll centers end up, and just how much grip and lateral weight transfer is there?

I'm a fan of using photos or good video so see exactly what the contact patch looks like at full suspension load.

But, the old school method (and it's surely more accurate than a visual) is tire tread temperatures on a skidpad. Forget theory. Forget what you think you know and what you expect the suspension to do. What IS it doing? If your tire tread temps indicate that the outside of the tire tread is significantly hotter than the inside, then you need more negative camber. Simple as that.

[CaptainSquirts]

Got it, thanks. I'll just use the old hand method until I invest in some kind of tire temp gauge indicator. Or even just comparing the wear before and after an event?

I know the question is almost the same, just trying to get clarification. I usually have to have higher tire pressures so my tires don't roll over on the sidewalls. Would this pretty much be the same answer you gave above or does having less bodyroll/stiffer springs warrant me from needing as much as I did. I know the obvious is try less pressure at the next event and see if I need less or not. But out of theory, should I be able run less psi with less likely hood of rolling over?

[Loren]

If you've been running your front tire pressure artificially high to prevent sidewall damage, I think you might possibly get away with less tire pressure if you've got less body roll and/or more negative camber.

[twistedwankel]

Every tire has totally different sidewall stiffness. I won't be getting any more 295mm Toyo's with 30% wall as they nearly herniated ole Carl even in 90F heat when brand new. Rivals are stiff also. So are RS3/4's. RE71's seem a bit on the soft side but if fitted to the proper width rim will stay flat unless you oversteer. No idea about original Nexen but Ron never rolled them over even going into the weeds 30yds got no hula skirt?

[CaptainSquirts]

I'm having some issues with car pulling to the left. If I hold the steering wheel straight, the car will pull straight. If I let go (even surface roads), the car will tend to pull on the left. I've tried adjusting toe up front (FL toe in and FR toe out) and regardless what I do it will always tend to pull to the left. Rears are currently toe in very very little (will take measurements again). Could bad thrust angle cause the left pull? I'm all out of ideas.

[Loren]

It's impossible for front toe settings to cause the car to pull one way or the other. Front toe will always self-center. If your front toe is off, the STEERING WHEEL will be off-center, but the car will still point straight. If you've got too much front toe-out it will make the car "darty"... and maybe if you're on a road with a lot of crown it might feel like it's pulling to the right because of that.

If you've got pull, it can be related to rear toe. But, even then, I think the tendency is going to be for the car to go straight when you're going straight. If your rear toe isn't centered, it will just cause the car to "crab" at an angle as you drive, but it shouldn't pull unless it's way off. (I could be wrong on that) Strange rear toe settings will manifest themselves more when you start turning. Say both rear wheels are pointed slighlty left... when you turn left, you've got toe-in on the loaded wheel -- and when you turn right, you've got toe OUT on the loaded wheel. That kind of thing can feel weird as hell.

No, more likely, if you've got pull while driving straight on a flat (no crown or camber) road, it's going to be due to a significant camber mis-match, CASTER mis-match, or tire pressure mis-match. I'd start with the easy stuff and check tire pressure first, then camber... then maybe rear toe, and lastly front caster (cuz caster is a pain to check).

[CaptainSquirts]

Camber both -2.7, psi is the same. Can caster even get out of whack if there is no way to adjust it? Possible top mounts not bolted tight enough but I doubt and will check that.

[Loren]

If your caster is not adjustable, it's probably fine unless something is bent.

What about rear camber (and toe, and tire pressure), though?

Another possibility is uneven shock adjustment or a blown shock. Or one of your spring perches came loose and lowered itself.

[CaptainSquirts]

The ride heights are a little different all around due to the corner balance. Rear camber both -1.5 and same rear psi. The shocks have been rebuilt and have less than 500 miles on them. I'll recheck the to make sure the locking rings are still tight(should be since I hammered them in with a flat head). Could different corner heights cause it? In the end, as long as it doesn't cause any extra wear I can live with it.

[Loren]

If your corner heights were optimized and then the alignment tweaked to match, you should be okay there.

How much pull are we talking about? Is it an actual "pull", or just a wander? Is it in the direction of the road camber?

Some cars are very sensitive to toe-out. Miata guys, for instance, will often run a little bit of front toe-out without issue. But, when I tried the same on my Yaris, it was all over the place. I couldn't even run zero toe on that car. It needed that little bit of toe-in to keep it stable.

So, if you're flirting with toe out, or even just "less toe in", front or rear, it could be making the steering more sensitive... which is good for autocross, but not always good for the street.

[CaptainSquirts]

If I'm on an even road(looks even to me), and then let go of the steering wheel. The steering wheel will wander to the left like 10 degrees ish. Sometimes it'll stay in the middle when I let go for a bit, but eventually it will tend to wander to the left. I'll only get a very slight wander to the right if the road dipping a nice amount to the right, which I should expect it to dip that way in that condition. I'll have to recheck front toe and start at 0 toe and play from there. On another note, I noticed sometimes when braking the car wanted to go to the left, more of a pull than wander. Sometimes it does it, sometimes it doesn't. Never pulls to the right when braking, just left or goes straight.

[jbrannon7]

Maybe you need some new bushings. I know your front sway bar bushings are shot. Grab the wheels at 3 and 6 and test for any play, then grab them at the top and try again.

[CaptainSquirts]

I literally just remembered about you mentioning the front sway bar bushings a couple minutes before you posted . I'll look into getting a new set of those and hopefully they won't be a pita to reach.