Setting up my Miata

[Magooiii]

So....
Looking for opinions on what next..
First here’s what I have. Completely stock 1994 Miata NA with LSD. S4 car
Original springs and sway bars front and rear. Replacement stock type shocks recently. No bump stops.
Falken 615 tires 195/60/14.

Driver. Complete NOOB.

Where to go from here? I have heard a lot of great ideas at events however I thought we could sling some around in here before I make any commitments.

What I don’t like Is what seems like huge amounts of body roll. It feels unsettling and I am either lifting or under committing to elements which is making the car oversteer sometimes to the point of being unrecoverable. (Lol we all know what that means)

What can I do to help this....

Staying in S4?

Moving to M3? Not my first choice prefer to keep car in S4.

GO! TIA!

[Native]

Alignment.
Adjustable shocks.
Sway bars.
All stock-legal.

[Loren]

Original springs and sway bars front and rear. Replacement stock type shocks recently. No bump stops.
Falken 615 tires 195/60/14.

TIRES. Your tires aren't the best, but they're certainly adequate for now. Among the best you can get in 14" sizes. When you're ready to up your tire game, you'll want to go to 15's. I'm going to insert a caveat below.

You must keep stock springs and ride height in stock class, so that's a given.

SWAYBARS. You can change swaybars if you want (again, see caveat). Most people find that Miatas like either removal of the rear bar or more front bar. Everything, and I mean EVERYTHING on your suspension is a compromise. No free lunch. You put less or no rear bar on the car, you get a little better power delivery coming out of a turn at the expense of more body roll. You put more front bar on the car, you'll get sharper steering response, better transitions, and better power delivery out of a turn... at the expense of slightly harsher street ride (I don't care what they say, it DOES affect ride quality because you're rarely hitting a bump at exactly the same time with both wheels... any difference from left to right you're going to feel), and potential for understeer, and potential for skimming over little bumps in a turn.

That said... once you've got your SHOCKS and ALIGNMENT sorted, you might consider experimenting with a larger front bar. You might like it.

SHOCKS. Okay, they've been replaced. But with what? Even the OE shocks (unless they were the Bilsteins that only came on the 93LE and the 94-97 R Package for NA Miatas) weren't that great. They were okay when new, and fell flat by about 20k miles. Any OE equivalent shock is going to pretty much be in the same boat. "Okay" for a while, but just. Then very much not. I'm betting you're into the "very much not" area with your shocks.

So, start there! Get some good shocks. Konis. Bilsteins. Maybe Tokiko. Maybe KYB AGX if you want to go cheap (they're not "great", but they're adjustable, cheap, and will get you by for a few years). Get something that is tried, verified and recommended by people who autocross. Monroe is right out. Adjustability is nice, but not required. If it's a really good shock (Bilstein), you don't need the adjustablity.

BUMP STOPS. I hope your "no bumpstops" comment is misleading. If you assembled the shocks with NO bump stops, you'll have all sorts of problems. The Miata (and most other modern cars) is designed to corner on the bump stops. They are part of the spring system. Without them, you'd bottom out, probably damage your shocks internally (talk to Philip about his Konis with bump stops that were too short). And anytime you bottomed out, you'd get into terminal oversteer or understeer depending on whether it was the front or rear that bottomed out first. I hope you meant that bumpstops weren't added or changed. The NA Miata has a rubber bump stop (rather than the poly foam used on the NB and lots of other newer cars) that is built into the shock boot. They're fine, but as they age, the very end of them tends to get mushroomed flat, and the rest of the rubber hardens as it ages. So, they really don't quite work as they should when they're 20+ years old.

I'd recommend getting a new set of bumpstops. Either factory NA ones, or maybe factory NB ones... or something equivalent. Again, see caveat.

Driver. Complete NOOB.

Work on THIS! It's going to make more difference than anything. Look at the shitty suspension Philip is on, and how often does he win his class and/or embarrass people in much higher classes? Focus on driving more than anything.

What I don’t like Is what seems like huge amounts of body roll. It feels unsettling and I am either lifting or under committing to elements which is making the car oversteer sometimes to the point of being unrecoverable. (Lol we all know what that means)

Body roll in itself is not a problem. The suspension is designed to work with it. As the body rolls, suspension compresses, and the dual wishbone suspension actually gains negative camber to compensate. Body roll isn't hurting the car at all. It does mess with the driver IF it's not controlled. That's the key. You don't need to actively search and destroy all sources of body roll as so many people are eager to do. You just need really good shocks to CONTROL the body roll. You don't want the car to "flop", you want a nice controlled roll and recovery. That's all in your shocks compression and rebound damping.

Definitely try to stay in stock as long as you can. Competition is stiff enough there. But, it's even stiffer in Mod classes, and you'll have to spend a certain amount of money to keep up. Not only that, but you'll have to learn how all the parts work together and how to adjust things to work as you want them to. Best to stay in stock and keep your adjustments minimal. Shock adjustment, maybe swaybar adjustment, alignment and tire pressure... that's enough to keep up with!

Oh yeah, the caveat:

FAST Stock rules are like no other club's stock rules. We're a small club, we believe in "run what you brung" as much as we can get by with. Our rules are very basic and simple, and our philosophy is "if the rules don't say you can't, you can" (within reason). Most other clubs default to the SCCA classing and SCCA rules. SCCA's philosophy is "if the rules don't say you CAN, then you CAN'T". It's a VERY strict approach vs. our very loose approach.

If you have any notion that you might want to compete with the SCCA guys, or any other club... take a minute to study their rules, and at least understand which of the mods you might be considering are NOT allowed in the class that you might want to compete in. You might decide to do them, anyway. It's just good to understand and know where you are.

So, for shocks, you're fine. You can use ANY shock even in SCCA stock. (which they now call "street" category) Swaybars, they allow you to change ONE, but not both. WHEELS, they have some particular allowance, which has changed, and I don't remember what it is. You'll have to look that one up... but, I know you couldn't run like 15x7's on a Miata in SCCA stock... whereas you could with FAST. Bump stops, SCCA requires them to be stock, we sort of turn a blind eye to them. Alignment, SCCA allows any adjustment within the factory range OR factory specified repair range (so you could use "crash bolts" on a strut car IF they were a factory authorized repair method). FAST allows you to do most any suspension mod you want or need to do to get the alignment you want... but we limit how much camber you can have.

-----------

All that is just a long-winded way of saying mostly what Steve said. Only I'd do shocks first, then alignment... and not rush to do swaybars until after you've got those things tweaked in and adapted to them. For one, you might find that you don't need larger bars (talk to Jamie... his car has stock bars and he does just fine). But, my personal reason is that I like to LEARN from my mods. Change one thing at a time. Learn what that ONE mod did for you, then move on. So, do the shocks first. Give that an event or two. Then improve the alignment. Give that some time. Tweak the shock settings if they are adjustable. Spend some time learning that. THEN... okay, what is a swaybar change going to do for me?

Change too many things at once and you never know what anyhing accomplished on its own.

[Carracer]

So....
Looking for opinions on what next..
First here’s what I have. Completely stock 1994 Miata NA with LSD. S4 car
Original springs and sway bars front and rear. Replacement stock type shocks recently. No bump stops.
Falken 615 tires 195/60/14.

Driver. Complete NOOB.

Where to go from here? I have heard a lot of great ideas at events however I thought we could sling some around in here before I make any commitments.

What I don’t like Is what seems like huge amounts of body roll. It feels unsettling and I am either lifting or under committing to elements which is making the car oversteer sometimes to the point of being unrecoverable. (Lol we all know what that means)

What can I do to help this....

Staying in S4?

Moving to M3? Not my first choice prefer to keep car in S4.

GO! TIA!

Easy mode is,
Get Bilsteins shocks or Koni yellow shocks with new bump stops ( 2001 honda civic bump stops can be cut to fit and are cheap ).
Find a used front roll bar, personally, I think they are way overpriced for a piece of bent metal tubing new.
15in NB wheels, 205/15/50 Bridgestone RE71R.
Have Joe put a alignment on the car, max front camber, after that get all the caster that is left, 0 front toe and 0 toe in the rear or 1/8 toe-in for the rear.
This is gets you a little less body roll and way more grip and be stock class legal in any club. This is about as far as one can "reasonably" go and stay stock.

When I drove your car it felt very balanced and was great under braking. If your goal is to get rid of the body roll get a big front bar. If you want to go faster, alignment and 205/15/50 Bridgestone RE71R and the car can win in S4. If you want improve both, shocks are the ticket.

[Loren]

Big front swaybar WILL induce understeer, though. You just need to be aware of that. You'll come screaming into a turn-around too hot, turn the wheel and nothing will happen because it loads the outside front tire INSTANTLY. No free lunch. Everything is a compromise. What that big front bar "gives" on turn exit, it can take away on turn entry.

In that case, it's a little bit driving style dependent. Maybe you can learn to drive around the issue, and find the trade-off acceptable. But, don't just assume that a big front swaybar is "magic". Mazda picked a certain set of compromises when they designed the car, and they work. You go messing with that... and I'm not saying you "shouldn't"... it's easier to mess up the handling of proper sports car suspension than it is to improve it. Do your homework. Move slowly.

The best place to begin with any sports car is to get the car handling as it was designed to. Replace worn out bushings and anything else that needs attention. Put GOOD shocks on it. Good alignment and tires. Now you're back to the baseline that the factory provided and can make more rational decisions about what you might want to change. Knee-jerk replacement of springs and bars to "reduce body roll" based on the fact that you have crappy shocks is a very common mistake.

"Any suspension will work if you don't let it." - Colin Chapman

[BrilloHeadBen]

I rode in this car plenty yesterday. I would start with the free rear swaybar removal mod and SHOCKS! The shocks are OE replacements, and while may be fine for street duty, aren't up to the task of autocross.

[Jamie]

So....
Looking for opinions on what next..
First here’s what I have. Completely stock 1994 Miata NA with LSD. S4 car
Original springs and sway bars front and rear. Replacement stock type shocks recently. No bump stops.
Falken 615 tires 195/60/14.

Driver. Complete NOOB.

Where to go from here?

Frankly, for a newbie, you just need to baseline the car for now. Make sure it has bump stops -- stock Miata bump stops aren't eternal, and they're meant to be part of the spring system. The lean is normal...Miatas are literally designed to corner on their bump stops. The car will hang on. Put a good alignment on it, and work on the driver for the rest of the season. When you wear out the tires, rekindle this conversation.

[Loren]

^^^ That.

[Magooiii]

Yes I meant 0 nada bump stops. There were none when I changed shocks and did not know they were missing until later.
So that is probably a big part of my issues.

[Loren]

Yes I meant 0 nada bump stops. There were none when I changed shocks and did not know they were missing until later.
So that is probably a big part of my issues.

Huge.

[Magooiii]

[Loren]

FYI, these are the bump stops that Philip was talking about.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00K8SEQX6

You'd have to look it up, but I *think* they would even be legal for SCCA stock if you trim them to stock length. Not sure what length that is.

If you're not worried about that, just know that the last segment on the narrow end is VERY soft and gives you a super-soft engagement. It essentially does its job and you never really feel it.

I think I actually installed them full-length on a 1.6 NA once (good ol' Fred) and liked it that way. But, they were slightly compressed at static ride height. Ideally, they should probably be trimmed (from the fat end) to something close to stock NB bump stop length. (I don't think NA bump stop length would be the same because it's a different material)

If you want to geek out on Miata bump stops, you can read this:
http://tampabaymiatas.net/forum/viewtop ... =4&t=13598

It just read the first page of it again, it's a fun thread.

[Jamie]

Yes I meant 0 nada bump stops. There were none when I changed shocks and did not know they were missing until later.
So that is probably a big part of my issues.

Oh, yeah...that's practically a recipe for snap oversteer.

[Loren]

Oh, yeah...that's practically a recipe for snap oversteer.

And/or snap understeer if you happen to be on the brakes and try to turn. Whichever end contacts first is going to let go.

Finished reading the bump stop thread. I think the bump stop I linked above may be the longer VW bumpstop. They're cheaper from Amazon if you have Prime and don't have to pay shipping. You can get the Honda ones from any of the Honda suppliers for about $6 each plus shipping. You'd definitely have to trim the VW ones, they're way long.

[jbrannon7]

Bump stops that are part of the shock are unlimited because shocks are unlimited, but bump stops that are mounted in other places have to be the same length as stock.

[Loren]

That's what I thought.

[Magooiii]

4 bump stops 3 boxes. LOL
Thanks amazon prime

[Native]

[Magooiii]

Bump stops in. See y’all in the morning.

[Loren]

Does it feel different?