Brooksville, 21 Feb 09

[Jamie]

Since there's interest, and this one's fresh in everyone's minds.

While we did make a few adjustments, the map is accurate enough for discussion:

...my only comparison is the January course set up by Loren. I know a lot of people hated that course, but I actually found it much easier to navigate. The chalk lines helped a lot I think.

No doubt. It's good to get used to both, though -- lots of clubs can't or don't use chalk lines, so learn not to rely on them. For Brooksville events, the cost of lining the course would be unreasonable.

The February course was much quicker, too -- features came at you faster, which makes a difference, which makes looking ahead even more critical.

At the airport course, I kept getting lost. I think the culprit was the spacing of the cones in several places (entrance to the Chicago box, for example) made them look like gates when they weren't. I'd start pointing the car to go through "the gate," and then remember at the last second that I was supposed to go around it instead of through it. I went off course three times making that mistake.

In setting, up, cone spacing in the walls was a big discussion item. In retrospect, we should have thrown the remaining spare cones out there. If it helps any, that'll pose less of a problem as you get more seat time.

Yes, the entrance to the Chicago box was pretty bad. The first time I walked the course I thought that was a gate too.

For me though, that was a key part of the course, so I committed that section to memory. Any time you get to use full throttle you better know exactly what you want to do before you get there. I believe you make up the most time in the fast sections.

The real problem was that the course was late opening up...

Absolutely not true!

, and EVERYONE walked the course at the same time, making it impossible to look ahead. This made the morning coursewalk almost useless. That's why I squeezed in a second walk, the course was much clearer without 50 people standing in front of me.

What changed is that we kept people off the course until it was actually set up and tested, so we didn't have people walking around a work in progress and not finishing until just before the drivers meeting. The course was final and open for walking at 0910. Brian started his awards presentation at 0950, and the mandatory drivers meeting started 10 minutes later, so there was 40-50 minutes to walk. As you found out, the course wasn't packed solid that whole time.

I don't think chalk would have helped as it would be hard to see on the surface of brooksville.

Don't forget this was also a very challenging course. You can tell that by the big range of times posted from first to last. Some people were able to read the course and some people weren't. It even took the really good people a few runs to post good times. That's not normal, they can usually post a competitive time on their 2nd run. It took Elliott 5 runs to post a good time. It took me 6 runs to get where I wanted to be.

Site conditions probably had something to do with the time spread as well. While the sun was bright, the pavement was pretty cold to start, and even by the second group -- with a two driver car -- it took me a few runs to get decent heat in the tires. There was also section just below station 3 that became very dusty due to the pavement deteriorating -- there was a large change in grip on a section that demanded it!

[Anonymous]

The course was final and open for walking at 0910.

And everyone is satisfied with course open for walking at 9:10? I would prefer to get an earlier start, but if it's not possible then there is nothing we can do about it.

There was also section just below station 3 that became very dusty due to the pavement deteriorating -- there was a large change in grip on a section that demanded it!

Interesting, I had oversteer there on my last few runs and I blamed it on the tires falling off. Great, now I am back to no data on my new tires.

[impalanut]

I thought the time management went very well. Another factor in tire heat was the large run groups giving the tires a lot of cool off time between runs. Although, if you look at my raw times, there was only about 1.5 seconds difference from my first run to my best for raw time. I think this reflects cold tires more than the course set up. Also, there were no hard turns, so tire heat didn't mean as much as when we have some of our other course set ups. Overall, I though it was well run. My personal preference is for smaller run groups, but we also have to allow for enough people to work the course.

[Anonymous]

Ah, I was actually talking about a big range of times between the first place and last place finishers. To me that is a sign of a good and challenging course. In that the fast people are finding speed that everyone else isn't.

Good course...
1. Big difference between 1st and last place.
2. No cone hits.
3. No off courses.

[Jamie]

And everyone is satisfied with course open for walking at 9:10? I would prefer to get an earlier start....

I'd like that as well, and I think we can get there. We actually had the course set up at 0850...in the remaining 20 minutes we sent Loren out for a couple of test runs, made some adjustments to the course, sent Tod Byram back out to retest it, pronounced it good and opened it up. Compare that against getting a final course somewhere around 0915-0930 with no test runs.

It's certainly possible to let people wander the partially-set course earlier than that, but for what purpose? Put 'em to work and get the course finished! I think we can get better with practice.

There was also section just below station 3 that became very dusty due to the pavement deteriorating -- there was a large change in grip on a section that demanded it!

Interesting, I had oversteer there on my last few runs and I blamed it on the tires falling off. Great, now I am back to no data on my new tires.

'Fraid so.... A large puff of dust marked every time a car went through that section. I was always loose through there (spun once), but had plenty of grip through other hard transients.

[Native]

Good course...
1. Big difference between 1st and last place.
2. No cone hits.
3. No off courses.

Now, how do we plan for those criteria each time, and know it before the course is actually run?


I spun too, for the first time in a long time - after the turnaround on the way back out near the end somewhere - I like being able to blame the dusty section - thanks!

[Jamie]

Good course...
1. Big difference between 1st and last place.
2. No cone hits.
3. No off courses.

Now, how do we plan for those criteria each time, and know it before the course is actually run?

1. "Three pedal" course -- a good mixture of maneuvers.
2. Reasonably large gates
3. Good visuals, easy to navigate (which isn't the same as easy to drive).

Of course, now we know why Jeremy doesn't like anyone's courses:

Good course...
2. No cone hits.

I spun too, for the first time in a long time - after the turnaround on the way back out near the end somewhere - I like being able to blame the dusty section - thanks!

Sorry...the dusty section was in that fast section before the turnaround, and didn't stretch across the whole course. You'll just have to put it down to your natural affinity for driving backwards!

[Native]

LOL, I did end up facing the wrong way...it was just lift-throttle oversteer I didn't catch quick enough - I chickened out...gotta keep working on "suck less."

1. "Three pedal" course -- a good mixture of maneuvers.
2. Reasonably large gates
3. Good visuals, easy to navigate (which isn't the same as easy to drive).

Helpful hints for all those aspiring course-designing-event-chairs-to-be, along with many of the rest of us.

[Loren]

The course was final and open for walking at 0910.

And everyone is satisfied with course open for walking at 9:10? I would prefer to get an earlier start, but if it's not possible then there is nothing we can do about it.

Anything is possible, and for the people who aren't in the mix making it happen, it probably seems like a wonderful idea. But, we need to remember that we're all volunteers, and we do this for fun on the weekends. Rushing around trying to meet some arbitrary time deadline in the morning is not fun.

I'll certainly agree that 10-10:30 is getting "too late", but 9am is fine! If we start at 7am, that gives us 2 hours to set up the course... and that's about how long it takes to finish the job.

Now, if we were getting PAID to do this, and had a regular crew who did the setup every single time, it would be different. We could get through the setup quicker, or we could start earlier, and we could have the course ready by 8am. But, as an all-volunteer organization... Hell, it's hard enough to get event chairman volunteers without making the job more difficult.

Relax, people!

[Anonymous]

Rushing around trying to meet some arbitrary time deadline in the morning is not fun.

Haha, and stacking every single cone in the trailer by myself at the last event wasn't fun either. But I don't mind doing it, because that was my assigned job.

I'll certainly agree that 10-10:30 is getting "too late", but 9am is fine! If we start at 7am, that gives us 2 hours to set up the course... and that's about how long it takes to finish the job.

Now, if we were getting PAID to do this, and had a regular crew who did the setup every single time, it would be different. We could get through the setup quicker, or we could start earlier, and we could have the course ready by 8am. But, as an all-volunteer organization... Hell, it's hard enough to get event chairman volunteers without making the job more difficult.

The only problem I have with a 9:10AM start is that now there is no reason for me to show up earlier than 9AM. Which everyone else will start doing and it will get worse and worse and eventually the events will start later.

Maybe it was just this one event, because the people that usually help setup, like Drew and Dave weren't there.

[Jack]

they way to handle that is set a dead line for tech inspection, if you say all cars must be teched by 8:45 then people will get there on time, or charge a late fee.
when you are at a place like brooksville, you have a list so you know who's comming.
when we are in sant pete its a little diffrent. all you have to do is set the times and stick to them.
we as a club make the rules so we should set times and dead lines so poeple will get with the program.
we all drive from far places, so keeping a good orginized and well planned event is very important.

[Loren]

we all drive from far places, so keeping a good orginized and well planned event is very important.

And that's just it... we ARE very organized and we do plan our events well. 9am is a good time to plan on having a course set up. 10-10:15 is a good time to plan on having a driver's meeting. Nothing wrong with what we're doing now. We almost always get in 6+ runs and we're outta there by 4pm. That's GOOD.

Ask the folks who have run with other clubs in other parts of the country and in the past... what we have here is REALLY GOOD. When I started autocrossing (and right on up until I took over THIS club in 2002 and changed it) the norm was 4 runs. Nobody ever expected any more than that.

Even with those meager expectations, and without a lunch break (or lunch provided) those events somehow often dragged on until 4-5pm.

Give Steve a little credit here. This club operates quite nicely.

Now, we COULD back up our entire operation by an hour... cut registration off at 8-8:30 instead of 9-9:30. Close the Brooksville gate at 8:30, etc. But what does that gain us? All the people who set up, many of whom already have to get up at 5am would have to get up an hour earlier... and they'd often have to begin setting the course up in the dark!

Again I say... relax, people. What we have is good. Enjoy it.

[Anonymous]

9am is a good time to plan on having a course set up.

I disagree. 1 hour or in the case of the last event, 40 minutes is not enough time to get 60 people through a coursewalk. The proof is right here...

At the airport course, I kept getting lost.

The only reason for someone to get lost on that course or any course, is poor coursewalking.

If you start at 7AM I don't see any reason why you can't be done at 8:15, and then do a novice walkthrough around 9:15 or 9:30 and then drivers meeting immediately after at 9:45 or 10:00.

relax, people. What we have is good. Enjoy it.

Nothing wrong with people voicing opinions to make the club better.

[Loren]

The only reason for someone to get lost on that course or any course, is poor coursewalking.

Poor course-walking because you're a novice and we didn't offer a novice walk. More time wouldn't have helped him. A novice walk or a better-marked course would have.

If you start at 7AM I don't see any reason why you can't be done at 8:15

My experience tells me otherwise. If you have a bunch of gung-ho people start at 6:30, yeah, you can get done at 8:15. Usually, people start showing up to set the course at 7:00 and don't really get moving before 7:15-7:30 and the course is done around 9-9:30. How many events have you chaired where you had your course ready to walk at 8:15?

and then do a novice walkthrough around 9:15 or 9:30 and then drivers meeting immediately after at 9:45 or 10:00

Novice walk at 9:15 is a fantastic idea.

Nothing wrong with people voicing opinions to make the club better.

No, there isn't. I'm just trying to keep things in perspective.

It really only takes about 4 hours to run a typical autocross. (6 runs, 60 cars, 30 second start interval = 180 minutes of actual run time) Time is added by group changes, reruns, timer problems, course designs that extend the start interval, lunch, and late starting... but we can still get it all done in 6 hours without a fuss. (10am-4pm)

To try to do it "better" means putting people in more of a rush, cutting down on the time to socialize, and just adding stress in general. To take away from the social aspect of autocross is to take away a lot of what it has to offer... face it, you're spending 6-8 hours of your day at an autocross and only getting 3-5 minutes of seat time. There HAS to be more to it than that.

I guess my question is, what exactly are you trying to make "better"? I like the casual nature of our events. Ask around, it's a large part of the appeal of our club.

[Anonymous]

To try to do it "better" means putting people in more of a rush, cutting down on the time to socialize, and just adding stress in general. To take away from the social aspect of autocross is to take away a lot of what it has to offer... face it, you're spending 6-8 hours of your day at an autocross and only getting 3-5 minutes of seat time. There HAS to be more to it than that.

In my opinion, if you sign up to do setup, you should be doing setup, not socializing. So what if 2 or 3 people can't socialize for one hour in order to get the course open. You have the rest of the day with no responsibilities, you can socialize all you want.

Do timing and scoring get to socialize while they are working? I think they are pretty busy and would love to hang out and chat. I might try that at the next event. "Please hold the start, I am having a really good conversation right now."

Do you think Howard and Bill would mind if I stopped to hangout for a while instead of busting my butt packing up the trailer at the end of the day?

I guess my question is, what exactly are you trying to make "better"?

I thought it was pretty obvious I was talking about the course opening up at 9:10AM was too late in my opinion.

[nc4me]

It all starts with the supplies. From what I understand the trailer was to arrive at 7:30, which it did. As soon as it did myself(I was signed up for tech with jack), Frank(who had no assignment so he shagged cones later in the day during the 2nd run group), Sam( not sure what he did), and Jamie(event chair) unloaded the trailer and started course setup ten minutes later(probably around 7:45-8:00). So considering the course was setup and tested by 9:10, that was pretty good. We could have saved half an hour if the trailer would have been there at 7:00 and course setup could have went faster with more experienced guys doing it(the people who were signed up for it, like loren were there as well about 5 minutes after we started).

By the way this is for future events(not ranting about this one). I understand Bill and his wife couldn't be there before 7:30.

What I am saying, is that future event chairs need to make this a priority if we are going to start earlier. They need to find someone who can get the trailer there at 7:00 and also need the people who are signed up to unload the trailer, do course setup, and registration(to sign those few people in) to be there right at 7:00 as well. Had that been done this event, we could have had the course setup and tested probably by 8:30. If that's still to late for some people, than I got nothing for you, because I don't see how it could possibly get done any faster. Unless you can suggest any other ways to save time.

[Native]

It's all about having enough volunteers - the trailer doesn't need to be there at 7 if we have 10 folks doing setup. If only 3 people are doing setup, well, then it'll definitely take longer. I asked the first dozen people or so through registration that morning to help get the course set up. Did they? (I was at the gate, so I have no idea...).

If not, they must not be concerned about event start time, or number of runs. I suppose that's their prerogative.

If they are worried about start times, and number of runs, well then, hopefully they are reading this and learning that the more help we have (and I'm not talking about a regular work station assignment, I'm talking about lending a hand just because...) the quicker stuff will get done and the sooner the fun can start and the longer the fun can last. Same thing at cleanup time (at least the quicker stuff will get done part).

This discussion has occurred before - that autocross is a volunteer activity and the more folks that volunteer (again, for extra stuff, not just a regular work assignment), the smoother it all goes, the less folks burn-out, and the more fun it is for everyone. If that's where this "course design" thread is headed, it might be better started as a new General topic so more folks are apt to read about it.

[Alizarin]

and then do a novice walkthrough around 9:15 or 9:30 and then drivers meeting immediately after at 9:45 or 10:00

Novice walk at 9:15 is a fantastic idea.

I vote that, should we continue to use the little whiteboard to indicate the course is closed for walking, that we also indicate on it that a novice walkthrough will be at a specific time, and also indicate the driver's meeting time. Perhaps a giant battery powered wall clock to provide "official" event time?


I also vote we stay on topic for this thread. This is getting away from course design discussion and into the aspects of event management.

[Charles]

My off-topic comment before we return to our normally scheduled course design discussion.....

It's a good thing I'm not in charge..........

We would start as late as possible to still get in 8 runs before sunset.

[WAFlowers]

By the way this is for future events(not ranting about this one). I understand Bill and his wife couldn't be there before 7:30.

We were actually there around 7:10 for this event. However we often don't make it until 7:30 as noted.

It takes us a minimum of 1:10 to drive to Brooksville. And to do that requires that we get the trailer the day before and leave it in front of our house overnight. Otherwise it would be closer to two and a half hours!

They need to find someone who can get the trailer there at 7:00 and also need the people who are signed up to unload the trailer, do course setup, and registration(to sign those few people in) to be there right at 7:00 as well.

There have been a significant number of events where the trailer sat untouched for half an hour after it was delivered. IMHO that has been the major bottleneck at previous events. Not this one though.

And I'll gladly let someone else tow the trailer so I can sleep in. Getting up at 5:30 on a Saturday isn't my idea of fun.