How to deal with class G?

[Dave-ROR]

The issue is that the people who normally compete for the top spots in G, drove in different heats and very different track conditions last weekend.

How often has this been a problem though? Weather conditions obviously aren't predictable, and I understand you want to compete with other drivers of your same ability. Maybe if we have a bunch of drivers in G and need to divide the group into seperate run groups, we should make sure that the top ten G drivers in points are in the same run group.

Not very often obviously (as I stand corrected )

My main complaint with splitting the class into multiple run groups is actually not about the weather issue, etc, but to let you see how much Jeremy is beating you by so you can set a goal and try to achieve it. That's someone difficult if he runs at a different, later, run group than you do.

As we discussed, I think we both would have driving in the rain if we had the chance

[Solar]

My main complaint with splitting the class into multiple run groups is actually not about the weather issue, etc, but to let you see how much Jeremy is beating you by so you can set a goal and try to achieve it. That's someone difficult if he runs at a different, later, run group than you do.

That's why I say make sure the top 5 or 10 people in points in G are in the same run group. To me this seems to be the easiest solution.

[WAFlowers]

That's why I say make sure the top 5 or 10 people in points in G are in the same run group. To me this seems to be the easiest solution.

OK, problem solved. Let's move on.

Or is it?

[Solar]

OK, problem solved. Let's move on.

Or is it?

I seriously doubt it.

[impalanut]

I think the basic problem is that g is too large to run in a single group. Once we saw this happening, we were trying to find a way to split the group. Splitting the group so that they can run together and also to make sure we can have enough workers for all the slots.Not too even out the competition but merely to allow the group to run together. Since B rarely has anyone it was reasonable to combine it with another group and try to find reasonable parameters to split G. Grouping by prior time is ok as long as people show up more than once in a while. You could use their last best placing. Regrouping is alsl reasonable, since our groups are somewhat arbitrary anyway (in other words they don't follow a national guideline, not that they weren't well thought out).

[Dave-ROR]

OK, problem solved. Let's move on.

Or is it?

I seriously doubt it.

NEVER!

Just to be nice, I likely won't be driving the S2000 next month, I'm working on using a Miata instead Watch out Jeremy, you're going down!

[Jamie]

Dam**t, I just bought f***ing "G" magnets for my car.
Anyone interested in buying two orange G's?

Cut off the tabs and run in "C".... My goal this summer is to catch Bob T. while running street tires.

OK...here's the easiest thing to do for now: if it's necessary to split the class at future events, I'll make sure all the S2ks are grouped together, and all the Miatas are grouped together -- the rest will take their chances on which of those groups (or a third) they end up in. If the grouping seems to work, we can look at splitting the class structure whenever King Steve declares the season turns over.

[Jamie]

Dam**t, I just bought f***ing "G" magnets for my car.
Anyone interested in buying two orange G's?

Cut the tabs off and make 'em Cs....

Here's the easiest thing to try out: If it's necessary to split Class G at future events, I'll make sure the S2ks are in one group and the Miatas are in another. Everyone else takes their chances. If the grouping seems to work, we can figure out how to split the class when King Steve declares an end to the '08 season.

[Native]

Jamie makes a good point about splitting G run-group-wise - if you do it by points, there will be a run group of largely novice drivers with no way to safely pair them up to work.



I'm gonna post a new thread with that poll about ending the season in July and changing our "year." As Loren said, probably not everyone has been reading this thread about G.

As for G itself, there's the run group size/split issue, and the isthisfaircompetition issue. I edited a poll at the beginning of this thread asking about the competition issue. Please feel free to continue cussing and discussing. I'll start:

I likely won't be driving the S2000 next month, I'm working on using a Miata instead

Dammit, Dave!

[blacksheep-1]

My 2 cents...
I never really understood why we divide classes at 2liters, Take an ancient Ford 2300 SOHC engine, it's totally outclassed in horsepower by BMW, and Audi and they're under 2 liters. Wouldn't HP to weight work much better? tkae the advertised horsepower vs the advertised weight and come up with the classes. I'm sure they could be fudged a little but until we own a portable dyno/scales like NASA, it would get us much closer than the <2L >2L deal. throw in some penalties for performance tires and maybe All Wheel Drive and call it a day. Oh yeah, and maybe power adders: http://www.superchargersonline.com/hp_calculator.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


What would class G look like that way?

[Jamie]

Wouldn't HP to weight work much better? Take the advertised horsepower vs the advertised weight and come up with the classes.

We could, at the expense of quite a bit more work. Given the modifications we already allow in the production classes, advertised horsepower is at best a ballpark figure. Advertised curb weight isn't much better -- I routinely ran my Prelude 100 lbs lighter than the factory-listed curb weight simply by running a near-empty gas tank and removing the spare tire. Then there's differences across years and sub-models -- what's the variation between an early '90s Mustang LX and a late '90s GT, for example? Most of all, chances of competitors knowing those figures to any degree of accuracy is pretty low -- sometimes it's enough just to get them to pick the correct class among the ones we have.

We opted to place a premium on driver skill in order to run a simple classing system. There are adjustments possible, but before we start doing math in public and debating allowances for weight and power, RWD vs FWD vs AWD, live axle vs IRS, and so on, we'd be better off simply taking advantage of someone else's work and adopting the existing SCCA or NASA-X classes. Frankly though, when Jeremy straps on his S2k and spanks my times, it's not just the car....

[Solar]

My 2 cents...
I never really understood why we divide classes at 2liters

We divide the classes at 3 liters.

To me "HP to weight" will just cause more confusion; it really doesn't matter where we "split" the classing, because everyone won't be satisfied. There will always be a few cars that will border on the edge, and we'll have another debate. 2¢

[Anonymous]

Since there isn't really an easier way to split up cars than the current model...

Why don't we just make a G1 and G2? G1 can be an advanced group, G2 can be beginners or less competitive cars, or whoever wants to be there.

[Jamie]

G1 can be an advanced group, G2 can be beginners or less competitive cars, or whoever wants to be there.

...there will be a run group of largely novice drivers with no way to safely pair them up to work.

[Anonymous]

why don't you create a true novice class then? Split them evenly between all heats. Two problems solved at the same time. G is more manageable, and you don't have an abundance of novices in one class.

If G is still too big, split it up G1 and G2.

[miazda man]

i don't think a novice class is the answer. i still think a class for 2 to 3 liter and a class for under 2 liter

[aparke]

I don't think changing liter size is going to get us anywhere different than where we are. Admittedly, the current classing is very robust - to keep it simple and laid back.

Having a <2-liter class would still have a Lotus Elise and RX-8 competing with a Geo Metro.

If splitting the G class into novice/advanced, etc. is doable with the worker assignments, then that makes the most sense. It will certainly keep things [relatively] simple.

[Native]

hmm,

Miata (all types): 12 (maybe some two driver cars?) (maybe 11, Car #5 lists as a miata but a S2000 was using that number)
S2000: 4 (maybe 5, see above)
Civic (all types): 3
RX8: 1
Focus: 1
240SX: 1
Chevy Malibu: 1 (two driver car)
Scion TC: 1
Neon: 1
MX-3: 1
Unknown: 1

Such a car-model breakdown is typical of most of our events, and imho it doesn't have anything to do with Sunrider roots. This may have been mentioned before, but, only with the purpose of "majority rules," should we consider a stock-Miata-only class? Splits up G nicely, and removes all issue with Miata vs. s2000/Rx8/Elise/etc. Shouldn't be an issue with too many novices. Elsewise, G stays as it is?

[Anonymous]

So the Chevy Malibu vs. S2000/rx-8/Elise/etc. is OK? But Miata vs. S2000/rx-8/Elise/etc. is unfair? lol

I think that's the most boring suggestion yet.

[Jamie]

why don't you create a true novice class then? Split them evenly between all heats.

Because novice classes are a waste of time for improving drivers unless they run embedded with their regular class, where they're exposed to better drivers running similar, but usually better set up machinery. A catch-all novice class spread across the event is little more than a means of making one or two people feel good, then arbitrarily declaring them as experienced. That helps not at all.